Thread: X-ray of shot deer

You are in far more danger if you like to make your sinkers or cast your own bullets.

I just took up bow hunting no led in my deer unless it's from someone else and survived an old wound.
But in all seriousness it's nothing to do with led I just like the challenge of bow hunting.

Originally Posted by hillbilly

I just took up bow hunting no led in my deer

Hahaha, I think you need to change your arrows to those fancy ones with the flashing LED's in the end then!!!! Problem solved for you, all the LED in your deer you could ever want

Originally Posted by hillbilly

I just took up bow hunting no led in my deer unless it's from someone else and survived an old wound.
But in all seriousness it's nothing to do with led I just like the challenge of bow hunting.

I was bowhunting when carbon arrows became popular.
The advice from the experts was don't ever use carbon arrows for hunting. If an arrow broke in an animal small carbon fibres would be released into the animal. Eating these would cause certain death.
Carbon arrows appear to be completely acceptable for hunting now.
So what's changed?

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I was bowhunting when carbon arrows became popular.
The advice from the experts was don't ever use carbon arrows for hunting. If an arrow broke in an animal small carbon fibres would be released into the animal. Eating these would cause certain death.
Carbon arrows appear to be completely acceptable for hunting now.
So what's changed?

Don’t use carbon fibre cleaning rods, now they dangerous, mate and I, lead slugging a bore, rod broke and the shards went into the back of his hand, me pissing myself didn’t help. Long and the short of it, it doesn’t show up under X-ray so has to be ultra sound. Removed the big bits they could feel and got some of the smaller bits with the ultra. The bits break off trying to tweezer them out. But still has a lot of it in is hand. The bore measured .379, way under 400, made up two sizing dies to get them to size

Originally Posted by Maca49

Don’t use carbon fibre cleaning rods, now they dangerous, mate and I, lead slugging a bore, rod broke and the shards went into the back of his hand, me pissing myself didn’t help. Long and the short of it, it doesn’t show up under X-ray so has to be ultra sound. Removed the big bits they could feel and got some of the smaller bits with the ultra. The bits break off trying to tweezer them out. But still has a lot of it in is hand. The bore measured .379, way under 400, made up two sizing dies to get them to size

Sounds like user error

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I was bowhunting when carbon arrows became popular.
The advice from the experts was don't ever use carbon arrows for hunting. If an arrow broke in an animal small carbon fibres would be released into the animal. Eating these would cause certain death.
Carbon arrows appear to be completely acceptable for hunting now.
So what's changed?

Market forces.

Companies that could not produce them at first started to undermine them with these rumours.

Surprised the MAGA crowd are still using Mexican made Gold Tip arrows (who have done a commendable job in making a product that is both affordable and good quality).

Ironically a lot of the sponsored archers who are vocal Trump supporters shoot Chinese made arrows!

various people pushing a narrative for various reasons, none of them benign.

I consumed more lead putting sinkers on my fishing line using my teeth to clamp them shut as a kid than I’ll ever consume eating game I’ve killed. I’m perfectly fine, just ask my wife ��.

Do what you want. Use lead core or solids. Makes no difference to me just don’t force something on me like using a mono bullet.

Certainly gets you thinking.

Back in the 80's or earlier, farmers/mechanics never wore gloves or respirators when dealing with chemicals. I have had 3 family members not blood related develop parkinsons. Recent studies have shown exposure to certain chemicals triggers cells associated with parkinsons. No turning back once it starts.

Originally Posted by Rusky

Certainly gets you thinking.

Back in the 80's or earlier, farmers/mechanics never wore gloves or respirators when dealing with chemicals. I have had 3 family members not blood related develop parkinsons. Recent studies have shown exposure to certain chemicals triggers cells associated with parkinsons. No turning back once it starts.

That could be. And I'm sympathetic. We live with carcinogenic chemicals daily.
Unfortunately proves nothing regarding lead poisoning.

And what happens in Africa India or China are all irrelevant.

Before there is even ANY talk about banning lead bullets the authorities need to PROVE that there is a health issue. Then they need to explaine why they should remove our choice to use cup and core

They have and should,,, IF there is a proven health issue inform and educate, NOT dictate.

Have they banned swimming due to drownings,, NO, they manage it and educate.

Have been out shooting stuff for the last few days but following thread as and when I get reception. All I can say is that if you’re worried about lead contamination just head or neck shoot animals or leave meat on animal from shot zone as I do when shooting for supply to others. Or use solid copper bullets but remember copper poisoning is a thing too. Referencing articles from places with high environmental lead levels is irrelevant/pointless to my mind. About the only thing I got out of video about accubonds is don’t use them because they’re too frangible. Pisses me off a bit as I’ve got a couple of hundred for 6.5, just have to use on goats or targets I suppose. The water container test was interesting because I’ve done similar with nearly every bullet brand/style I’ve used to get an idea how they perform and apart from ‘ varmint’ bullets generally haven’t seen fragmentation quite like shown in video. Maybe I’ve been lucky. Anyhow it’s up to individual choice what bullet one uses. Just remember there’s shit around in everyday environment that’s not good for you. I choose not to be easily influenced without doing my own methodical relevant research.General Google searches and Wikipedia don’t count unless well referenced and/or peer reviewed either.

Originally Posted by woods223

Have been out shooting stuff for the last few days but following thread as and when I get reception. All I can say is that if you’re worried about lead contamination just head or neck shoot animals or leave meat on animal from shot zone as I do when shooting for supply to others. Or use solid copper bullets but remember copper poisoning is a thing too. Referencing articles from places with high environmental lead levels is irrelevant/pointless to my mind. About the only thing I got out of video about accubonds is don’t use them because they’re too frangible. Pisses me off a bit as I’ve got a couple of hundred for 6.5, just have to use on goats or targets I suppose. The water container test was interesting because I’ve done similar with nearly every bullet brand/style I’ve used to get an idea how they perform and apart from ‘ varmint’ bullets generally haven’t seen fragmentation quite like shown in video. Maybe I’ve been lucky. Anyhow it’s up to individual choice what bullet one uses. Just remember there’s shit around in everyday environment that’s not good for you. I choose not to be easily influenced without doing my own methodical relevant research.General Google searches and Wikipedia don’t count unless well referenced and/or peer reviewed either.

I used to tell my lads that before taking a position or firming an opinion to seek out and consider 3 well informed and objected pieces of information. Triangulation.

https://leadaware.nz/blood-lead-testing/

Like usual both sides of the argument are just people preaching to the converted. Without data our opinions mean nothing.

I had another thought too, since we're using an academic study, which is great to be evidenced based I thought I'd use my access to a Research Database to see what other evidence is out there to feed into the topic.

This study, looked at the distance travelled by animals (thousands including brown bear and moose) after a double long shot before expiring and found no difference between copper and lead. "Our findings showed that animal flight distances varied greatly although we only used cases where bullets penetrated both lungs. Variability also increased with body mass. This pattern is to be expected because (1) total bloodvolume remains unchanged in relation to body mass, (2) blood circulation time increases with body mass, whereas (3) the radial dimension of the permanent wound cavity remains largely unchanged (Stokke et al. 2018). Thus, bleeding rates will decrease, whereas animal flight distances will increase with increasing body mass."

Unleaded hunting : Are copper bullets and lead-based bullets equally effective for killing big game?
Published in: Ambio,2019
Database:JSTOR Journals
By: Stokke, Sigbjørn;Arnemo, Jon M.;Brainerd, Scott

A critique of the RNZ referenced study is that its a small sample size of 44, and of the 44 21 samples were under the daily 'safe limit" But every other study I found indicated similar or worse concerns.

This article talks about how any exposure is dangerous
Hunting with Lead Ammunition: A One Health Perspective
Published in: Arctic One Health : Challenges for Northern Animals and People,2022
Database:Springer Nature eBooks
By: Arnemo, Jon M.;Fuchs, Boris;Sonne, Christian;Stokke, Sigbjørn


This article talks about how lead in donated food bank game meat is dangerous. It also interestingly talks about how there's evidence that lead exposure even below the FDA "safe limit" has shown harmful affects on children.
Biting the Bullet: A Call for Action on Lead-Contaminated Meat in Food Banks.
Published in: American Journal of Public Health,2022 Suppl 7
Database:CINAHL with Full Text
By: Totoni, Samantha;Fabisiak, James P.;Beasley, Val R.;Arnemo, Jon M.;+3 more

This article talks about the spread of lead through white tail deer, similar to the RNZ study
Lead concentrations in white-tailed deer tissue due to retained bullets
Published in: Human-Wildlife Interactions,2018
Database:JSTOR Journals
By: Zimmer, Meghan C.;Osier, Tod L.


What's my personal takeaway? As someone who eats 90% of my protein from wild game I shoot, as does my 4 year old son and partner. I'm going to transition to copper bullets. Any recommendations for 7m08?