Thread: .22lr rifles when did it become ok that they were all just crap?

Originally Posted by mudgripz

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...

I dunno if it's so much opinon as well documented actual testing and field work experience

Originally Posted by Shamus

You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...

That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.

Originally Posted by mudgripz

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

You bring up some interesting points .
Those group sizes are impressive .
You must have been using wind indicators and Target ammo ?
What groups did your Competition rifles shoot ?


Ken

Originally Posted by mudgripz

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Just to clarify my earlier post this is where the opinion is - I have had for years a lovely little German made 22 mag, lovely walnut stock, Kahles scope and it gets used - for everything. Has been bounced around in a scabbard on a motorbike etc. Its the rifle that gets used the most so I bought a nice one and I use it - it doesn't stay in the closet.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.

True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded

I now see your point of view Shamus.
cheers.

Shamus, you're probably not like most kiwis who buy their working .22 rifles in the sub 1K category.

When discussing the masses, generalizations have to be made.

Originally Posted by Shamus

True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded

With you.

One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.



Finished with another group



Would be better if someone taught me how to shoot. Instructions I've had so far are load a round and keep it pointing that way.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

With you.

One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.



Finished with another group



Would be better if someone taught me how to shoot. Instructions I've had so far are load a round and keep it pointing that way.

Looks like you are doing OK

You seem to be doing not too badly on your lonesome there Gadgetman

I'm getting there. I can see I kept pulling shots, and I knew as soon as I squeezed the trigger on those fliers. But you have to look to see how bad it is, just like when you cut yourself.

Certainly has made for some interesting reading and have been fervently looking around and have seen a few things on trademe etc. Re the EM332 - not at that price.
Have been swinging around to the CZ452 actually have used a Brno Mod 1 a lot and owned a Jw-15 for some time - it started to give trouble with inconsistent accuracy after about 1500 rounds went from extremely accurate to shocking and the zero moved around. Think it was the stock in the end that let it down and was the cause. Should have just relieved the barrel channel and probably would of fixed it but sold it on. Wanted a semi-auto but really I don't think I will be happy with one.
Like the Anschutz and Weihrauch but a: No shops around here have one to look and test for fit. b: for the weihrauch hog back stock should be obsolete these days with the predominance of optics. The CZ I know is a good fit/stock size, maybe get the barrel cut to 16" (what the other 6 inches are there for is anyone's guess on a .22lr).

A Model 60 DLX would be nice but a tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.

I think have moved away from the point of this thread, the OP wants something nice, he has money to spend but wants something that looks good, feels good and is finished nicely to a high standard and is struggling to find something that fits this bill.
He is not disputing that cheap .22s can be accurate, merely that most, even the more pricey ones, look and feel cheap and are not something he can be proud of owning.
I agree with him in this regard.
As much of a CZ fan as I am I still agree that the workmanship of the 452 is not what it was on the Brnos, I have not played with a 455 yet so cannot comment on those.

Maybe we should ask Howa to build a .22, they can make a centrefire to a extremely high standard that retails for under $800 so why not a .22?

Originally Posted by Spudattack

I think have moved away from the point of this thread, the OP wants something nice, he has money to spend but wants something that looks good, feels good and is finished nicely to a high standard and is struggling to find something that fits this bill.
He is not disputing that cheap .22s can be accurate, merely that most, even the more pricey ones, look and feel cheap and are not something he can be proud of owning.
I agree with him in this regard.
As much of a CZ fan as I am I still agree that the workmanship of the 452 is not what it was on the Brnos, I have not played with a 455 yet so cannot comment on those.

Maybe we should ask Howa to build a .22, they can make a centrefire to a extremely good standard that retailsfor under $800 so why not a .22?

You are right but this thread has helped make a decision to get something that may not be perfect but adequate and well matched for what I will do with it. Re the 455 I haven't seen close up or felt one but anything switch barrel must have a compromise to allow this in something I do not require to change the barrel ever (merely opinion about switch barrels maybe there is no compromise but it is my perception).

Your last line was pretty much the point of this thread, I am happy to spend but it must be good value for my money and rimfires compared to centrefires you must make a huge leap in cost to just take a somewhat minimal step up in quality.