Thread: Accuracy expectations

I've never chased the velocity demon, only acceptable accuracy. The deer cannot tell the difference between a "fast" load and a slightly lower speed load and bullet drop may not be significant.

I'm gonna take a guess that all your projectiles were above 80gn? Try those targex 70gn flat base. Seat them just off the lands and use a moderate powder to fill out the case.
If that doesn't work then the check your scope (but i'm betting you'll have your bullet). Have you got any pics of your groups? They can speak volumes

I have been looking after a rifle for a few weeks, and hoping to get it shooting right for an upcoming comp. Have had it kinda sorted but wanted to make sure so did some research and loaded up 3 different random loads, 6 of each. Had 30 minutes to spare after work so took it down to our range. First shot, cold dirty bore, about 30mm high @100. Next 5 shots in to a nice tidy wee group. Next load at 200, a decent looking group as I walked up, but you know, not teeny weeny. Back to the bench and shot off the last 6. Tidied up my bits and pieces, loaded up the truck and drove up tp pick up the target. Another decent group.
So I came back home and thought I'd just play with numbers to see how good these groups were. My range is 100 and 200 metres so had to do the conversion to them old fashioned yards things. Then I got the micrometer and measured the group, centre to centre, as you do. Then I googled the formula just to make sure I kinda knew what I was doing. First load .66moa, second load. 82moa, third load .69moa. And at first glance I thought these groups were pretty so so.
Have no idea what speed they were doing, dont really care cos they work. But will find the speed out by verifying rather than a chrony cos the best load is gonna be used for a comp.
My suggestion is dont get hung up on tiny little teeny weeny wee groups, stop looking at FB and Youtube, and just take your best load and go shoot some shit. Maybe try it at 200 and 300 to see what it does, and if it still holds about 1-1.5 moa call it quits.
I have a BSA 7x57 Viscount, sorted a load for that about 15 years ago and have never changed it. Think it shot about 1.5moa. I fire one shot occasionally just to see if its changed, but never group it. And that rifle is probably my go to rifle for one of the local deer, or a trip to Fiordland, or a trip to South Westland. The only thing I've had walk away was a bloody boar that tipped over at 70 metres the other night and then decided it was gonna up and run away and die in the bracken. Cant recall any animal thats come back to me and told me that the bullet was going too slow, or wasnt quite as accurate as it should be, even a stag that was later measured at 275 metres.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Yes, I think you’re right. I’ve settled on a load that will consistently shoot 1-1.25 MOA, so should just be happy with that and head out hunting….

Greetings @Hunter_Nick,
Your rifle is a wildcat so pretty much everything is non standard so a run down on the rifle, especially barrel twist, its history as far as you know it, your loads that shot best and worst and lots of other stuff would make it easier to make sensible suggestions. Someone on the forum will have had the same problems which will save burning a lot of scarce components for no return. Don't spare the detail as something that may seem unimportant to you may stand out like dogs balls to someone else.
Regards Grandpamac.

Have 2 BSA Hunters, both rebarrelled in .222 and .223, shoot sub 1" and I'm not a fussy handloader.

Originally Posted by Arthur McBride

He's got a 6x45 though. I never met a .222 that wouldn't shoot under an inch for five shots with something.

Thought we were considering the "Hunter" action potential, not the caliber.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I’ve got another BSA the same, but in .222. Has the original barrel (that is pitted as) and that one shoots an average of 22mm with factory ammo. They used to have a reputation for being very accurate.

I’m using a solid front rest with a sandbag, and a ‘protector’ bunny ear rear bag from a solid bench. It’s certainly got enough accuracy for deer at the max range the cartridge is capable of, but for varmints at range, not so much….

It ought to be comparable to the 222.
Try shooting them alternately side by side in the same session and see if theyre really different.
I agree with you 6x45 is a in its heart a small animal cartridge and you dont want to be smashing in “anywhere in the chest” like you would with a 7x57.

Is it by any chance an ex 6mm PPC barrel with a 1:14” twist ?

Listening to all the feedback here, I’m starting to ‘get it’. Pragmatically it’s good to go as is, and has already put a heap of meat in the freezer. I was enquiring because one virtue of the cartridge is it’s excellent accuracy, something that I have failed to find so far. But in itself the term ‘excellent’ is very subjective.

For those that were asking, here is the rundown on the rig.

BSA Hunter action, was originally a .222 reamed to .223 until it’s barrel wore out. It was rebarrelled with a take-off Sako .243 1-10 twist barrel. That barrel had shot ‘only a handful of groups’ before it was removed. Reason for removal unknown.
Due to it being ex .243, it has been fitted to the action with a bush. In other words, by the time the chamber was cut off, there was not enough meat for a barrel tenon, so an adapter was made over the barrel to then thread into the action. This was work a friend and mentor of mine (original owner) had done. It ended up at 18” bolt face to muzzle. I don’t think he did a lot of work with it before selling to me to buy himself a thermal. He’s a mate of mine of 20 plus years, and shoots accurate rifles so I didn’t think this would be any different. The firing spring was a bit tired, so I replaced it with the one from my .222, and although it makes a better striker indent on the primer, no noticeable difference on target. Lug engagement is good on both lugs. Magazine and bolt throw lengthened out to 2.435” so plenty of room.

The stock is a glass one that I built in a previous thread. Bedded by my, and the bedding checks out with a dial gauge. No stress there. It’s fitted with a custom gun works supppressor, thread is 9/16x24.

Scoped with a Leupold VX1 3-9x40. Holds POI and adjusts fine so don’t suspect that being an issue. Sits in Parker hale scope mounts. RALS3.

Loads:
Best group was with 85gr Sierra SPT at 9mm. This bullet is the most accurate overall averaging 22mm, but also the slowest at an average of about 2650fps.
Next best is the 85gr Sierra HPBT. Best group of 16mm, and another at 18mm. General average of about 28mm. Got better velocity at around 2700-2720fps.
100gr core-lokt shot ok at about 28mm but as expected slow at 2450fps. Possibly a nice bush load though. Starting load for this was very accurate, but at 2200fps.
Worst bullet is the 87gr Hornady BTHP. Best group at about 20mm, all the way up to 60mm. Average of about 38mm. Struggled to get 2700fps with that one too.

I started with PSD mil brass, then progressed to new Winchester brass via Lapua match. Gave up the Lapua because it formed donuts when necking up, and was jacking up pressure as they were crimping the bullets when chambering.
I started with 2206H, then Win 748 and finally BM8208. I tried the others as I couldn’t get to book max with the 2206H due to powder compression, just not enough space in the case. The 748 didn’t help speeds or a accuracy, and BM8208 gave the same velocity with higher pressure. All loads individually weighed.
Initial testing of all loads was done at -0.010” (using a comparator). I also did a Berger bullet seating test with the Hornady because of its more secant style ogive. Made no difference to group accuracy. My load methodology is the OCW method as outlined by Dan Newbury pretty much to the letter. I thought I was seeing trends and nodes, but probably just confirmation bias to be honest. Some good loads were found right up at max pressure and 2700fps but primary extraction was getting stiff so wasn’t keen to keep it operating up there. Primers were very flat, but I noted the primer pockets were not that tight from new with the Fed 205M primers.

Only thing I haven’t done is try 70gr bullets. I thought about that but I personally feel a bit happier chasing deer with a bit more sectional density. And to be fair, there’s no point necking up a .223 case to shoot bullets that are lighter than what the .223 runs these days anyway.

My gut feel is that there’s something funky going on with the way the barrel is attached to the action. The chamber seems fine, no funky marks on the brass when it comes out, and I checked fired brass for excessive runout, no dramas there.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Listening to all the feedback here, I’m starting to ‘get it’. Pragmatically it’s good to go as is, and has already put a heap of meat in the freezer. I was enquiring because one virtue of the cartridge is it’s excellent accuracy, something that I have failed to find so far. But in itself the term ‘excellent’ is very subjective.

For those that were asking, here is the rundown on the rig.

BSA Hunter action, was originally a .222 reamed to .223 until it’s barrel wore out. It was rebarrelled with a take-off Sako .243 1-10 twist barrel. That barrel had shot ‘only a handful of groups’ before it was removed. Reason for removal unknown.
Due to it being ex .243, it has been fitted to the action with a bush. In other words, by the time the chamber was cut off, there was not enough meat for a barrel tenon, so an adapter was made over the barrel to then thread into the action. This was work a friend and mentor of mine (original owner) had done. It ended up at 18” bolt face to muzzle. I don’t think he did a lot of work with it before selling to me to buy himself a thermal. He’s a mate of mine of 20 plus years, and shoots accurate rifles so I didn’t think this would be any different. The firing spring was a bit tired, so I replaced it with the one from my .222, and although it makes a better striker indent on the primer, no noticeable difference on target. Lug engagement is good on both lugs. Magazine and bolt throw lengthened out to 2.435” so plenty of room.

The stock is a glass one that I built in a previous thread. Bedded by my, and the bedding checks out with a dial gauge. No stress there. It’s fitted with a custom gun works supppressor, thread is 9/16x24.

Scoped with a Leupold VX1 3-9x40. Holds POI and adjusts fine so don’t suspect that being an issue. Sits in Parker hale scope mounts. RALS3.

Loads:
Best group was with 85gr Sierra SPT at 9mm. This bullet is the most accurate overall averaging 22mm, but also the slowest at an average of about 2650fps.
Next best is the 85gr Sierra HPBT. Best group of 16mm, and another at 18mm. General average of about 28mm. Got better velocity at around 2700-2720fps.
100gr core-lokt shot ok at about 28mm but as expected slow at 2450fps. Possibly a nice bush load though. Starting load for this was very accurate, but at 2200fps.
Worst bullet is the 87gr Hornady BTHP. Best group at about 20mm, all the way up to 60mm. Average of about 38mm. Struggled to get 2700fps with that one too.

I started with PSD mil brass, then progressed to new Winchester brass via Lapua match. Gave up the Lapua because it formed donuts when necking up, and was jacking up pressure as they were crimping the bullets when chambering.
I started with 2206H, then Win 748 and finally BM8208. I tried the others as I couldn’t get to book max with the 2206H due to powder compression, just not enough space in the case. The 748 didn’t help speeds or a accuracy, and BM8208 gave the same velocity with higher pressure. All loads individually weighed.
Initial testing of all loads was done at -0.010” (using a comparator). I also did a Berger bullet seating test with the Hornady because of its more secant style ogive. Made no difference to group accuracy. My load methodology is the OCW method as outlined by Dan Newbury pretty much to the letter. I thought I was seeing trends and nodes, but probably just confirmation bias to be honest. Some good loads were found right up at max pressure and 2700fps but primary extraction was getting stiff so wasn’t keen to keep it operating up there. Primers were very flat, but I noted the primer pockets were not that tight from new with the Fed 205M primers.

Only thing I haven’t done is try 70gr bullets. I thought about that but I personally feel a bit happier chasing deer with a bit more sectional density. And to be fair, there’s no point necking up a .223 case to shoot bullets that are lighter than what the .223 runs these days anyway.

Thanks for that @Hunter_Nick,
The 6x45 was a later version of the 6x47 (on the .222 Magnum case). Both were used successfully as a bench rest cartridge, as you likely already know, until they were mowed down by the 6mm PPC. Most have a 12 or even 14 inch twist so do not shoot the heavier pills as well and sometimes not at all. Your 10 inch twist obviously rules out any problem there. You seem to have chased down all of the likely culprits although someone may come up with something else as a problem, lets hope so. So we are left, as you have deduced, with the barrel bushing. Might be worth testing some of the better loads at 150 or 200 metres as I believe that the VX1 and other Leupold scopes are adjusted to be parallax free at 160 or so yards.
Still, as you say, you still have a rifle that does the job on deer and perhaps that is enough while the experiments continue. All he best.
Regards Grandpamac.

For those into analysing groups:

85gr Sierra SPT. Accuracy ok, but speed average. Pressure too hot in the last 3 groups


Best 87gr Hornady BTHP. Again, velocity low pressure high.


Worst 87gr Hornady


85gr Sierra HPBT. Pressure unacceptable from 25.9gr upwards unfortunately. Stiff primary extraction. Clocked 2697fps at 25.9 through to 2733fps at 26.5gr

Hmmm - I've got two rifles currently with bushed barrels and they both shoot very nicely, I recall another one since passed to someone else with a bush and it was fine too. Done with care I don't think its gonna necessarily cause an accuracy issue.

From the groups in the pictures it looks to me like your rifle "prefers" a higher node. If you change powders you'll probably find the higher node with maybe less pressure. GRT is a very good tool for analysing this. I can do it for you but need a few input parameters for decent results, you a;ready show COL, we need barrel length, avg velocity of each group and most importantly, the case capacity (filled to exactly square with the case mouth, tapped cafefully to release any bubbles) of water in grains

Originally Posted by Tentman

Hmmm - I've got two rifles currently with bushed barrels and they both shoot very nicely, I recall another one since passed to someone else with a bush and it was fine too. Done with care I don't think its gonna necessarily cause an accuracy issue.

From the groups in the pictures it looks to me like your rifle "prefers" a higher node. If you change powders you'll probably find the higher node with maybe less pressure. GRT is a very good tool for analysing this. I can do it for you but need a few input parameters for decent results, you a;ready show COL, we need barrel length, avg velocity of each group and most importantly, the case capacity (filled to exactly square with the case mouth, tapped cafefully to release any bubbles) of water in grains

Sounds interesting @Tentman I’d be keen to take you up on your offer. Do you want case capacity sized or fired?

Its a fired case we need . . . .