Thread: Anyone else disappointed with M4s?

65? holy Jesus that must hold some decent $$$ value to it!

oh also Beavis what are the last 2 digits on the serial number of your 305?

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

65? holy Jesus that must hold some decent $$$ value to it!

oh also Beavis what are the last 2 digits on the serial number of your 305?

No idea sorry, got rid of it ages ago

I was just curious as to how a combat weapon like this has become so popular with such design flaws, simple design flaws. Especially when weapons such as the AUG have it sorted. Is it to do with everybody using them so they will overlook a few flaws for compatibility with magazines etc. Or maybe I am just overlooking something.

Wouldn't it be easier if it had a charging handle like an SL8 and a bolt catch incorporated or at least able to be operated without removing hand from pistol grip?

R93, we have two drills, one called a IA and one a stoppage. IA is check safety, slap mag up to make sure it is seated properly then rack charging handle. Probably not needed but thats what we are taught.

Rock River Arms Hunter, I was told by an army armorer the reason why we haven't "upgraded" to the m16/ar style weapon is that they are not substantially better, if any better than the AUG.

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

65? holy Jesus that must hold some decent $$$ value to it!

Yeah well it did when I bought it, doubt if I will see that money again. Everyone want's nice shiny new ones now, not old battle worn veterans. Not that I care it's not for sale.

Originally Posted by Savage1

I was just curious as to how a combat weapon like this has become so popular with such design flaws, simple design flaws. Especially when weapons such as the AUG have it sorted. Is it to do with everybody using them so they will overlook a few flaws for compatibility with magazines etc. Or maybe I am just overlooking something.

Wouldn't it be easier if it had a charging handle like an SL8 and a bolt catch incorporated or at least able to be operated without removing hand from pistol grip?

R93, we have two drills, one called a IA and one a stoppage. IA is check safety, slap mag up to make sure it is seated properly then rack charging handle. Probably not needed but thats what we are taught.

Rock River Arms Hunter, I was told by an army armorer the reason why we haven't "upgraded" to the m16/ar style weapon is that they are not substantially better, if any better than the AUG.

Who's 'we' Savage? IA is the reaction to a stoppage No?

I dig retro ARs. I'd love a nice SP1 and a CAR15 clone.

Originally Posted by Savage1

I was just curious as to how a combat weapon like this has become so popular with such design flaws, simple design flaws. Especially when weapons such as the AUG have it sorted. Is it to do with everybody using them so they will overlook a few flaws for compatibility with magazines etc. Or maybe I am just overlooking something.

Probably because they're extremely minor flaws, and other weapons have other flaws, for example, the awful trigger on every bullpup ever, or lack of ability to be used lefthanded, etc.

The AUG's look fugly and their magazine is in the wrong place. It must be awkward swapping mags out in a hurry. I've never handled one so wouldn't know. They just look like ergonomics wasn't too high up the list of design features. Eugene pretty much got ergonomics perfect on the AR. If the bolt hold open really bothers you that much just run a battery assist device like I said earlier. Of course that is all my opinion and I am a fan boy.

Originally Posted by Beavis

The AUG's look fugly and their magazine is in the wrong place. It must be awkward swapping mags out in a hurry. I've never handled one so wouldn't know. They just look like ergonomics wasn't too high up the list of design features. Eugene pretty much got ergonomics perfect on the AR. If the bolt hold open really bothers you that much just run a battery assist device like I said earlier. Of course that is all my opinion and I am a fan boy.

Every IA with a styer can be done from the shoulder, almost in the aim including clearing a breech obstruction. Mag change for a seasoned soldier is elementary and easier than the AR IMHO.
Having used both for a job that is. I perfer the AR for shooting from other postions but as far as ergos and reliability they are pretty equal.

You can operate the charging handle whilst holding the pistol grip(with your trigger hand) and using your non dominant hand to operate the charging handle,pushing the bolt release is a piece of p!@s! seriously cmon what are the "flaws" that you speak of????

also bearing in mind that the sl8 is 30 years its junior and the ar has been proven time and again for accuracy,dependability,versatility and reliabilty.... not to mention accuracy!


Cmon I gather that your digging the AUG because its your current service weapon so yea but I can't speak of the AUG myself as I've never had the opportunity to hold one

The bolt catch on the AR is small and difficult to operate, impossible to operate with the rifle shouldered, if you have to lock back the bolt to remove the mag in the case of a double feed then it's a fine motor movement to do so and is hard in a high stress situation without training.

Other than that, the charging handle is awkward to handle when you have the rifle shouldered, a side mounted one would be better. Reciprocating charging handle would be doubly better, as you could then dispense with the forward assist.

And while I'm on the subject, if you ever need to use the forward assist, then either your rifle is broken; is dirty as all hell and you should have cleaned it some time in the last 4,000 rounds; or you aren't operating the charging handle correctly - riding it forward rather than "slingshotting" it.


The SL8 is a terrible lump.

All that said, the AR is very light compared to other comparable rifles, very reliable if you get a decent one not some bargain-bin junk, and can be very accurate. It's also very modular and easy to work on, and the ergonomics are pretty great, and there is pretty much infinite after-market.

Yeap , I knew all the AR15 fan boys would HATE , my post , unfortunety , due to our restricted access to almost any semi-auto rifle other than an AR15 based rifle ( in NZ ) , and the current GovTs trend to not allow us to have the real cool stuff , it has slanted the veiws on many to idolise only what they can buy or have access to .

I comments about the Steyr AUG , may not be popular , BUT , Opps , I actually make my own mind up on stuff ( ie I am not convinced or brain washed my the USA ) , and usually its based on MY actual experience .
My liking the AUG does not come from , looking at glossy pics in books or any other such dribble , BUT from actually shooting IT , and have fired it quite a lot , both left & right handed .

I would take an AUG or SIG any day over an AR15 , I also like a lot of HK stuff , like there G3Ks , MP5s & HK53s , have not fired the HK rifles , BUT have fired the MP5 & MP5K , and they really do ROCK .

RE : HK 416 & 417 , I know Delta uses the 416 & also I think USMC are adopting a variant , I see Aussie , Brit SAS & French use the 417 and a few other Europen Armies using either the 416 0r 417 .

I also like Brens & GPMGs ( MAG58 ) , and Sterlings L2A3 & the L34A1 , and yeap ,shoot all those as well , like the Steyr TMP/BT MP9 , and yeap shoot that too , UZIs as well .

I have seen ARs that have had major corrision on the uppers & lowers , seen the hinge pin holes so rooted that the uppers twist .

P.S. I have a AR based rifle , BUT its only because I cannot buy what I really want , again thanks NZ , if I had access and was not raped on price , I would have an AUG , SIG550 & a G36 & Stoner63A.

Later Chris

Yeh me too. I'm really bummed out that military approved rifles aren't as good as ones I modify at home. Them SAS dudes could learn a thing or two from me - I've shot a goat at 440yds with a 6.78485`356 X 71856-`976 on a rest with no one shooting back at me with grenade launchers and AK 47's.

To be honest you lot ridiculing Military weapons Is beyond funny. THEY ARE MILITARY WEAPONS I'm sure they would laugh their heads off at your attempts more or less. We hunt deer NOT people. Next time anyone of you have to target and shoot a person or they will shoot you back - then you can comment on military arms. Otherwise pull yer fucking heads in. You really think you'd be interested in shooting a little group of 5 shots one foot to the left of the cunt with a turban firing full auto AK at you? All you want in that scenario is more firepower jam free. You may think firefights are you stickining yer head up with yer gun and firing back but they ain't. You F-ing well keep your body behind a solid object and one person sticks the gun up, points it behind them and empties a mag, drops the fucking mag, feeds anopther one in and keeps firing till another gun can join in. An accurate rifle means fucking diddly squat. A rifle that won't jam and throws lead down field with little recoil - give us that every day. After that some accuracy is needed but you worry about that once you've confirmed your not riddled and still have radio.

Hardly the same as a comfy day at the Range. Have any of you actually been fired upon whilst in charge of your firearm? If not how are you giving any sort of appraisal on a military firearm? I'm fairly bloody sure the M4 wasn't meant for a bunch of 'enthusiasts' to try target shooting with it.

Correction: We're talking about AR-15's not M4's, m4's are full auto capable whereas the ar-15 is semi only.....Also We're hunters aswell as targetshooters so don't go thinking we're just paper punchers here.

Oh my oh my its great, see you've pointed out a fair few points why our arms laws are getting pretty borderline ridiculous and thats being conservative -excuse the pun-.

I'd like to see MP5's, g3's etc more readily available mainly by in large for more selection to those whom a AR or an AK does not appeal, A shipment of some FN FAL's would be nice and Although I vehmently hate them Gunshitty's UMP 45's are nice in the sense of adding variety to the market, and also some AUGs.... realistically if they were to liven the market up something around the 3-3500 mark would do it, or some M1 garands from Korea even as a idea?

Fingers crossed what happens with AAB 285 in june aye! lets see if Banksie can't stop it???