Thread: BROWNING BLR LIGHTWEIGHT 20″ – 223 REM discussion

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so thats 2000 from 800 ha in twelve months...B.W. is talking 2-3000 per MONTH and again the next month. maybe they breed faster up in sunny north???? that 1400 from our farm NEVER got back up to that number again....and I didnt shoot that many....

Yeah I don't know @Micky Duck, this is only anecdote from the guy who manages the large mammal pest control for this one forestry company. It sounded huge numbers t me too, way beyond anything I can imagine. I've got no idea how big the forest blocks are, but they've got 14 full time shooters with ARs working every week so I assume the areas are huge. He did stress that the numbers are being constantly replenished from neighbouring DOC land. These forests are throughout lower NI from Gisborne to Wellington.

so you get my point then....IF the land will hold/attract 2000-3000 big animals per month.... nope cant get my head around that,the numbers are just too big as that recruited aniamls,so the neighbouring blocks have to have that many to spare so the population in the neighbouring blocks would have to be ..what???3-4 times that amount to keep replenishing...nope that doesnt work either...if deer can double population every 2 years....we will assume goats are similar and pigs,being pigs can have a large litter so lets say population AVERAGE can double every 4 years all species taken into account..fair enough???
so in order to shed 2000 animals every month...thats 24000 per year EXTRA animals so the neighbouring population would have to be in excess of what??? 100,000 animals???? nope thats only one year not counting fatalities on neighbouring blocks..so 200,000 plus animals...... how many sheep are in the biggest stations on fertilized ground???? yeah nah I smell a rat with the numbers.

thats nearly 5 animals per shooter per day if shooting 7 days a week...so feasible if looked at from that angle....1700 per man per year...now what were the top deer cullers tallies again????

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

thats nearly 5 animals per shooter per day if shooting 7 days a week...so feasible if looked at from that angle....1700 per man per year...now what were the top deer cullers tallies again????

Yeah it does sound extremely high. I had only taken him at face value on the assumption he was talking big areas, and didn't really question it partly because the HBRC biosecurity guys have shown me photographs of literally hundreds of red deer in mobs on N HB farms (they say the numbers are higher now in some areas than they ever ever been before), and also because my daughters partner has a family forest block at Wairoa, and he claims to have shot 7000 goats on it. Huge numbers do occur in some areas. Back to the forestry company guy, I do know that when he started the job there were only a couple of the guys with P endorsements, but now they all do and the police are more than happy that these pest animal numbers are real. I'll confirm next time I talk to him, I think the numbers are predominantly goats but certainly a lot of deer and pigs too.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so thats 2000 from 800 ha in twelve months...B.W. is talking 2-3000 per MONTH and again the next month. maybe they breed faster up in sunny north???? that 1400 from our farm NEVER got back up to that number again....and I didnt shoot that many....

MD, That’s near 2000 over a period of coming up 8 years shooting the area about 2-3 days month 8 months a year. It’s tricky going out often enough to know the goats routine/grazing circuit without training them your routine, they’re not stupid. I agree some of the numbers mentioned up north sound high there are some big forest blocks and every nanny you miss can bear 2 offspring every cycle so numbers can build quick. Just think of the numbers you see on the side of the Napier/Taupo road and remember you’re probably only seeing maybe 1 in 5. Sorry to ramble on, just kicking back after a day out.

yeah I hear you...just cant get my head around numbers that high with what Ive seen in past..... that 1400 never got anywhere near back up to that number,even when we were catching goats for $100 each and taking 4-5 per day the numbers didnt take anywhere near that big of hit,and still were not anywhere near as high as before. agree 100% sustained pressure is the key...just like any other species..take the foot off throttle of contro land the number creep up and outwards,wallabies down here sure showed that once they took away wallaby board shooters..... guess same could be said about the rabbits too. there are more deer around now on public land than any time in my 50 years on the earth,but the numbers at least where I hunt surely are not out of hand,my kill ratio of 3-4 females to males MIGHT help a tiny bit.... I saw 11 deer in one day last spring..most ever in that block,but some days we still draw a blank. that block is the opposite to what B.W. is describing ,as are many down here in south island...the animals come from private land onto public.....

Incursion coming from private on to doc or vice-versa it doesn’t matter but you gotta keep on to the buggers, be they goats pigs or deer. There’s farms around here that have shot 1300+ deer and the shits are still there. Doing away with pest control boards, NZFS, Internal Affairs etc did no one any favours. Much as everyone hates the idea, even WARO has it’s place, we’d be in afar darker place with shit like 1080 otherwise

no argument there...and a whirly bird on search n destroy is a very very effective tool...wasteful,but effective.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

yeah I hear you...just cant get my head around numbers that high with what Ive seen in past..... that 1400 never got anywhere near back up to that number,even when we were catching goats for $100 each and taking 4-5 per day the numbers didnt take anywhere near that big of hit,and still were not anywhere near as high as before. agree 100% sustained pressure is the key...just like any other species..take the foot off throttle of contro land the number creep up and outwards,wallabies down here sure showed that once they took away wallaby board shooters..... guess same could be said about the rabbits too. there are more deer around now on public land than any time in my 50 years on the earth,but the numbers at least where I hunt surely are not out of hand,my kill ratio of 3-4 females to males MIGHT help a tiny bit.... I saw 11 deer in one day last spring..most ever in that block,but some days we still draw a blank. that block is the opposite to what B.W. is describing ,as are many down here in south island...the animals come from private land onto public.....

There are several forum members here who were involved in forestry pest culling in the forests N of Napier back in the E cat days who might be able to chime in, but my recollection is that several members were full time employed on just pest control. Think that one through, 10+ guys with ARs working the same few forest blocks permanently... no other jobs, just shooting pests. Where do the numbers come from to maintain the population despite constant culling pressure? Where are the breeding populations?

In your case MD with the 1400 removed animals, what was the neighboring land use? Because there would be a huge difference if it was all open farm land, or all dense forest or similar habitat where the ferals could live.

Last week I was referred to an ecologist working with FMNZ (who manage the pine block next door), so I got in touch with him, and one thing I discovered is he had trail cams set up on a tiny 2ha patch of bush remnant right on my boundary and found a handful of red deer camp there for 3-4 days, depart and return on about a 2 week cycle. I have never seen them there, despite the spot being less than 100m from my main farm water pump and a place I go to frequently. 5-6 deer living in 2ha of remnant and no one sees them? How is that possible? It is quite possible there are feral animals just behind the next bush everywhere you go. At least the goats are easy; often brightly coloured, frequently very smelly, and less aware of hunters than deer are.

so you now have the pattern of the deer in that 2ha...you will be able to sneak in and zap them..... our farm was surrounded by native bush,we also had lots of possums,some deer,pigs and wild cattle BUT HAD NO TB all our neighbours had TB.... and that is why I bring up point of migration...we had a population of animals so population stayed stable,,,if we had created a mini vacume ,animals would flow in to fill it.the whole area got massive green rain bomb a few years back,as lots of forestry has been planted for carbon credits all around district,and there are next to no possums anymore,it was nothing to run over 5-8 on a trip home from tuamarunui...even trying to dodge them would still hit 1-2.... 5 years ago when up there I did same trip at night 3 times and saw not a single one.
to give you an idea on how many possums were around,I killed 300 in a night off cynide line and helped a mate skin 600 off another..we were VERY tired lads I can tell you,I just did the kittens /smaller possums and Roger did all the big redneck bucks being older and stronger....it was good coin back then,we averaged $6 a green skin,nothing done to it.
dogs make goats easy pickings...... without a heck of a lot of training..... when catching them Paddy soon learnt where the leaning trees were and headed goats towards them,then put hard pressure on mob,up the tree like possums they would go....we would glee fully catch them one at a time and drag to trailer to be sold.... I shot goats with .22lr on weekends with mate Dave B for beer money...head/neck shots only,plucks left in and we got same 5-6 per animal,possum skin prices had plumetted by then.... our best days were when we rounded up goats with dogs into corner of fence and took them out....he had a tiny scope and I was open sights...oh how a 222-223 would have made life so much easier.... so I do have some experience dealing with goats and have also shot rabbits full time..for a few months plus doing it part time night shooting both recovering bodies for pet food.....
you bring up good point on goats...colour...if I can give you one tip and one tip only...DONT shoot the big white ones..... the ywork as your judas goat as much easier to spot. and talking of judas goats...Dad had two twin nannies at home..caught as kids,buggered if know why they were kept,however I recall two occasions the ybrought home stinky billies,which I HAPPILY SHOT OUT THE BEDROOM WINDOW WITH 30/30...and another occasion,Dave and I were on our way into town with half trailer load of goats,and who should we meet on road but Dads pet nannies with about a dozen boyfriends... uot we piled and shot all ofthe boys,gutted them and off to town with nannies running off home in discust...... funny as heck looking back now and was just part of living on back country roads back then......you would be /could be hung drawn n quartered for doing it now.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Mike Bennet wrote something to the effect that he shot as many or more deer with a bolt action 303 out of a flying machine than the bloke he was competing against shot with a semi. So a good man with a bolt beats an average man with a semi auto. My uncle has a photo of ten 7x57 rounds arcing in the air as he works the bolt of the BSA Hunter back and forth

While not as quick as semi or even a pump I would bet any day of the week that a BLR would be quicker to reload and stay on target better than a bolt action with equal practice by just about anyone.
Just to be clear, I'm sure that there is some very quick people with a BA. However a lever action is the fastest manual CF action now allowed on a standard licence.

there USED to be an advertisement... not even sure which rifle company made it..for a pump action .22lr and that definately had photo of half dozen empties in the air!!!

Don't know what happened there, uploaded text as well but disappeared. Anyhow I couldn't decide whether to revisit this thread but after three days of rain last week got a bit stir crazy and decided to take the dog and rifle for a walk. Found a group of goats and decided to time myself with wristwatch how quick I could get a few. Result 7 goats, 6 shots, 11 seconds. All goats within about 17 meter range in open pine cutover so pretty easy shooting, bit harder bush shooting. Not trying to skite but just show what can be done with a bolt action, Howa M1500 223, when everything goes your way. prefer my old semi but.