Thread: a cat endorsed onto your e cat

There is no longer a requirement to install security precautions before your endorsement is issued. The requirement now is that you need the security precautions installed, inspected and approved before you take possession of an MSSA

Sorry to sound dense but what's the difference / benefit / hindrance ?

+1
There will be a lot of people wanting to know how this affects them. Does it only help those who already have an E?
Working examples?

I followed up with my AO today on registering two A cats as E's and I was told the official word from the top is that this type of application is on hold until policy has been ratified. I don't know why there are 2 rules but that's what it is.

Originally Posted by Digit

+1
There will be a lot of people wanting to know how this affects them. Does it only help those who already have an E?
Working examples?

Previously the police methodology was (in the case of a semi-auto being re-manufactured into MSSA configuration) to require the person to obtain both an endorsement and a permit to procure. Police then carried out the endorsement vetting on the "fit and proper" test but subsequently refused the permit to procure on the grounds that they had a thing called a "residual discretion." (They never said what this discretion was a residue of or where in the Arms Act it was provided for.. however that's another story.)

The decision of the High Court is that a permit to procure is not required to re-manufacture an existing semi-auto in MSSA configuration. The effect SHOULD BE that now only an endorsement is required and thus, once you're through the fit and proper test, police can no longer obstruct or interfere with the local manufacture / re-manufacture of MSSA firearms.

Digit... "E" is a letter of the alphabet and it makes no difference to anything to do with firearms if you happen to have a letter of the alphabet. An endorsement applies to a specific single firearm. It is an endorsement; not a letter of the alphabet. "E" is police nomenclature for a extra-legal nonsense that does not exist.

This helps civilian gun owners who wish to obtain a MSSA by manufacturing one locally from an existing semi-auto action and applicable parts. It allows both firearms licence holders and dealers to manufacture any endorsable firearm without obtaining a permit to procure.

I think the ruling about security precautions is fairly self-explanatory.

Kind regards
NSA

Originally Posted by cambo

Hi and welcome to the forum NSA.

A couple of questions regarding this.......
Does this mean for the likes of those of us with A-CAT AR's, that they wont need to go through everything to get an E-CAT endorsement?
We can get an endorsement to cover the rifle(s) we already have?

If you own a semi-auto AR15 that is not classified as a MSSA because of it's features, and you want to use it in MSSA configuration: i.e use normal capacity magazines instead of restricted capacity magazines, you would need to apply for an endorsement for each AR15 that you want to regularise as an MSSA.

Sounding like a broken record but again........... there is no such thing as an "E" endorsement or an "A Cat" Endorsements are for firearms.

For those who persist with this alphabet thing.... see here for an explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUJGEmZivZ8

We have asked these questions as we have all previously understood the different Firearm licence catagories/endorsements as A-CAT, B-CAT, E-CAT etc and the requirements that go along with them.

There have been numerous rumors regarding the "new" rules and everyone has been waiting in anticipation as to what exactly we need to do if there is a change to the classifications to our rifles.

Can you please inform us in the new licence system and the requirements then please? As it seems by your comments there is a complete change to what we have known and come to understand.


Also, I am really disappointed. I would have thought you wouldn't be so facetious with your comments seeing as you are supposed to be an authority on these matters.
Please keep your comments on track and to the point.
Thankyou.

But you can't buy an E cat firearm unless you have an E cat endorsement? If the letter E belongs to the firearm how does a normal non endorsed owner obtain that firearm if there is no such thing as an endorsed owner?

How does this apply to Letters 'B' and 'C'. Can I now convert an A to full auto and have it put on a C?

As a dealer how do I convert an A firearm to an E. do I wave a magic wand and say ' I now pronounce you E' and from that point on it is an E. or do apply to police to convert an A to an E. what form should I use.

Does the E and its relevant conditions travel with the firearm when it's sold. For example I have no interest in owning a E that can't be used for hunting. If thes conditions travel with the gun then some guns are going to be worth more than others based on there E conditions?

I'm still having trouble separating the E that applies to the user vs The E that applies to the gun.

Originally Posted by Digit

But you can't buy an E cat firearm unless you have an E cat endorsement? If the letter E belongs to the firearm how does a normal non endorsed owner obtain that firearm if there is no such thing as an endorsed owner?

How does this apply to Letters 'B' and 'C'. Can I now convert an A to full auto and have it put on a C?

As a dealer how do I convert an A firearm to an E. do I wave a magic wand and say ' I now pronounce you E' and from that point on it is an E. or do apply to police to convert an A to an E. what form should I use.

Does the E and its relevant conditions travel with the firearm when it's sold. For example I have no interest in owning a E that can't be used for hunting. If thes conditions travel with the gun then some guns are going to be worth more than others based on there E conditions?

I'm still having trouble separating the E that applies to the user vs The E that applies to the gun.

There's no such thing as an "E Cat" If you want to buy a firearm that attracts an endorsement, then you apply for an endorsement for the (particular individual) firearm you want to buy. There are no letters involved. For example You see a .38 police special pistol S/N 007007. So you go to police and obtain an endorsement for a .38 police special s/n 007007. That's very simply and easy to understand? Letters of the alphabet having nothing to do with it.

Can you covert an A to full auto ? Your question is actually: can you can re manufacture any firearm to full auto? Yes provided you first obtain an endorsement for it. The endorsement will be for the firearm that is classified as a restricted weapon (again there is no such a thing as a "C".)

As a dealer you are free to manufacture any type of firearm without more or further. To sell what you manufacture, the buyer needs an endorsement for, and a permit to procure for, that PARTICULAR firearm.

The endorsement is annexed to the firearm but 'endorsed' on the holders firearms licence. i.e the endorsement is linked to the gun and the firearms licence. If you sell an endorsed firearm, the new owner obtains a fresh endorsement linking the gun to his or her licence. The previous endorsement (yours) is revoked once the P2P is returned to the arms office.

There is a two way relationship between an endorsement

[GUN] <----------endorsement------------->[LICENCE]

That ought to help how to understand it.

That completely fucks up the live auction process. Previously you would indicate to those who ran the auction what endorsements you have. You would then bid on whatever takes your fancy with that endorsement.
Now after every item you successfully win you would need to apply for an endorsement for that firearm and if you don't get it the auctioneer would need to re-auction.

Originally Posted by Digit

That completely fucks up the live auction process. Previously you would indicate to those who ran the auction what endorsements you have. You would then bid on whatever takes your fancy with that endorsement.
Now after every item you successfully win you would need to apply for an endorsement for that firearm and if you don't get it the auctioneer would need to re-auction.

That's always been the case (in law). All auctions ought to include a procedural contract that the auction is subject to the bidder obtaining an appropriate endorsement.

In regards to remanufacture, can I now import PMags at $9.95 to convert A cat firearms to E cat. Can I now import magpul CRT stocks for the same purpose? All without needing to obtain permission or Import permits.... Keeping in mind that both these items are automatically seized by customs without a letter from the AO or a permit.
If one can't import these items then how can you remanufacture?

Here's a few more questions, if you can answer please NSA......

- How does this affect owners of AR's/AK's,that have previously been OK to own with the standard FAL with no endorsements?

- Do we have to obtain more stringent security other than required to obtain a FAL to continue to own these rifles?

- Do we now have to go into the Police and ask for a particular endorsement for a particular rifle we currently own?

- What are the rifles, or specifications of rifles/accessories that are now needing endorsements?

- Where can we obtain/see/read the complete and comprehensive list of changes and requirements for FAL's now?

I think what NSA is saying is - each MSSA you have, has it's own separate endorsement, the fact you have the E stamped on your license means you are legally entitled to obtain an endorsement for an MSSA.

You can see the minutes of the police arms committee meeting on the police website. The short answer is they don't even know yet.

Originally Posted by Beavis

I think what NSA is saying is - each MSSA you have, has it's own separate endorsement, the fact you have the E stamped on your license means you are legally entitled to obtain an endorsement for an MSSA.

That's the way I understand it to be too, even though I suspect its not the way it was intended to be viewed originally. However a judge has clarified it to mean what Beavis says.