Thread: Ever wondered why H&H takes years to make a gun?

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Just looked on their website, $260,000 for a break open rifle?????
I got my Baikal for $150, suckers...

It is a bit like expensive watches.

There are those who understand why the exist, and those who do not.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

It is a bit like expensive watches.

There are those who understand why the exist, and those who do not.

They exist to separate fools from their money.

Vulcanns, its the same with cars, the cheapest will get you there, but it's how you want to arrive. Making the choice to buy a high end gun is like buying a piece of art, only you can appreciate the beauty in it.

I once handled a J Rigby & Sons Mauser from 1909. I had always thought they would simply be a Mauser action nicely finished in a good stock. After all there was only so much you could do with one I had thought. It wasn't until I held it in my hands and worked the action that I understood the difference between a normal rifle on a Mauser action or even any modern factory rifle, and a London best rifle from a maker in the golden period of British gunmaking. I understood that there was a tier of quality above whatever I imagined could be done with a rifle that I had never suspected.

Originally Posted by Mick Hunter

I watched that the other day. Amazing pieces of art. Things that stood out for me, 100 people employed across the business and only 75 guns made a year.

But able to speed up. H&H set up the Army's No 4 (T) snipers back in WW2.

Buying an expensive gun like that, a sad ego trip. What a superbly and refined way to hurl handfuls of lead to down birds, blood'n'feathers everywhere.

My ego is big enough to own one. I would even put up with middle class snobs calling me sad to do it. Because I'm worth it.
Just dont quite have the money yet...

One is reminded of Philip C Bolgers comment which goes along the lines of "for somebody who doesn't have the price of a Rubens original, there may be some merit in a Playboy centerfold" (he made this comment when comparing one of his own designs to the Herreschoff "masterpiece" of yacht design "Rozinante")

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

My ego is big enough to own one. I would even put up with middle class snobs calling me sad to do it. Because I'm worth it.
Just dont quite have the money yet...

I felt like that when i bought my first (and only) Sako, 85 Hunter in Walnut stock, I've cleaned the bloody thing more than ive shot it.....!

before then it was a Lee Enfield, Baikal, Stevens, even a Norinco.....use a Howa for bush hunting and the Sako target shooting

@Carlsen Highway

Sorry for any offense taken, and it's true that, as @Scouser referred to, we ALL spend a lot of time (if not money) on things others may find unworthwhile.

You mention social class no offense taken as you don't know my background. But back to these guns which is more interesting . . . isn't social class what owning a H&H is about? Most gun makers are like watch makers. They don't just sell lead throwers or timekeepers -- they also sell a particular image, and the H&H image happens to be "Upper Class".

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Carlsen Highway

Sorry for any offense taken, and it's true that, as @Scouser referred to, we ALL spend a lot of time (if not money) on things others may find unworthwhile.

You mention social class no offense taken as you don't know my background. But back to these guns which is more interesting . . . isn't social class what owning a H&H is about? Most gun makers are like watch makers. They don't just sell lead throwers or timekeepers -- they also sell a particular image, and the H&H image happens to be "Upper Class".

No so much these days.

The price of "London Guns" has come down quite a bit.They are simply not as popular as they once were.Alot of people have become interested in Shooting and Country Sports in the UK in the last 20 years and Over and Under Shotguns are their Choice of Gun.

I was in a Gun Shop in Devon two years ago and the owner was willing to knock 50% off the price of a H&H that has been sitting on the racks for ages.The former owner having paid 50% more than the sticker price of the Gun during the 90's!

Thanks to some relations of mine, I had the chance over my years in Europe to handle and shoot some guns made by those prestigious houses and some made by less known makers but of equal or superior finish.

New, these guns fetch a bit of money way beyond what the average man can afford, but there is still a second hand market that can make some these makes a bit more affordable.

Originally Posted by Friwi

New, these guns fetch a bit of money way beyond what the average man can afford, but there is still a second hand market that can make some these makes a bit more affordable.

Doesn’t buying them second hand defeat the whole purpose of a custom made London Best gun?

Seems a bit pointless spending that much for a gun that doesn’t fit you perfectly and have all the exact options you want?

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Doesn’t buying them second hand defeat the whole purpose of a custom made London Best gun?

Seems a bit pointless spending that much for a gun that doesn’t fit you perfectly and have all the exact options you want?

How’s your custom fitted baikal going?

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Doesn’t buying them second hand defeat the whole purpose of a custom made London Best gun?

Seems a bit pointless spending that much for a gun that doesn’t fit you perfectly and have all the exact options you want?

Depends on your reasons for buying one.

You might just want one,or the one you want happens to fit your perfectly (something unlikely with a factory Gun),perhaps you just want a piece of art that you can take out and shoot.

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Carlsen Highway

Sorry for any offense taken, and it's true that, as @Scouser referred to, we ALL spend a lot of time (if not money) on things others may find unworthwhile.

You mention social class no offense taken as you don't know my background. But back to these guns which is more interesting . . . isn't social class what owning a H&H is about? Most gun makers are like watch makers. They don't just sell lead throwers or timekeepers -- they also sell a particular image, and the H&H image happens to be "Upper Class".

Cordite, there was no offence taken.
Isn't social class what owning a Holland and Holland about? Its a more interesting question than at first it seems.

What a buyer is doing is buying a perception of quality.
While there were upper class people in the world who owned guns made by legendary makers, the legendary makers did not become legendary simply because upper class aristocrats bought their guns. There are associations with that kind of past world I grant you, but the reason why that is is because of the guns high level of quality and bespoke fitting, which is why they were purchased by that part of society in the first place.

Today, these guns are symbols of a level of craftsmanship that is mostly in the past. ONe must consider them in context; for a community that is fed material goods by businesses that are based on affordable mass-produced factory items, it is hard for us to recall that in years past there was no such options. In 1909 the firearms offered in the commonwealth were of two kinds - cheap or poor quality, or those based on sporterised service rifles, or high quality makers with famous names, like Westley RIchards, Holland and Holland, Thomas Bland, John Rigby&Sons, Fraser of Edinborough and so forth. There was very little middle ground in those days, and we are spoilt for choice today by comparison. One didn't have to be upper class to want to buy a Holland and Holland in those days. All one had to want was a quality gun. They demonstrate custom quality of the highest tier, and associations with traditional shooting and hunting. (But I grant you, shooting and hunting in England in years past was indeed a pastime conducted by an upper class and the wealthy, so they have the aura of that past era. )

Today, is owning a H&H gun only to try and buy some image of being feaux upper class? I dont deny that H&H try and sell guns bases on associations with an upper class image. Certainly that is modern marketing, aimed at modern wealthy people and reinforces the notion of quality and desireability with past ideas of class. (Many of them American buyers, I believe, who have a fascination for the English upper classes)

But really the answer is no, it doesn't mean that you have pretensions of being upper class just because you want a Holland and Holland, just an appreciation for quality, a love of old school rifles and historical tradition.
Unless you do, of course.