Thread: Gun too short.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

What firearms require barrel length measurement? I'm aware of overall length but not barrel length in the legislation.

None (legally, see what systolic says below), it's the just way the police explained how they measure the end of the barrel.

Originally Posted by systolic

Pistols on a B endorsement have to have a minimum four inch barrel.
That's not in law, but is something to do with the agreement between the cops and Pistol NZ I think.
There's a couple of approved pistols with barrels under four inches, but are approved because they are only designed for ISSF type target shooting.

Basically right. Personally not aware of examples where under 4" barrels are approved however. PNZ agreed to this with police, so they treat it like they have some law to back it up. There's non PNZ clubs that have not agreed to anything PNZ have said.

Originally Posted by Square22

@Jexla also https://www.pistolnz.org.nz/blog/759038

See what is said at the top of that link.

Not trying to start an argument at all, just trying to clarify. I think your document may be the 'old' one that the blog refers to which the measuring interpretation was later changed?

It makes sense to me as removing the stock (but not buffer tube) from an AR-15 rifle is probably faster than removing a lot of muzzle devices and it would also reduce the length. You would lose the detent pin if you removed the stock but the rifle would still be able to be fired.

Alright, for one, the document I linked is on the police website so is far more valid than anything on any blog. Secondly it says:

“To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.”

Now, reading that it first says MSSA, so that excludes ALL A category firearms, then it also says "flash suppressor" so that implies 'flash hiders' only, not muzzle breaks or suppressors.

Originally Posted by Square22

@Spanners Are there any pistol nz staff / kiwi gun blog authors on the forum ?

Thirdly, I'm a FOUNZ editor and a PNZ member who takes great interest in this stuff if that cuts the cake for ya

Personally not aware of examples where under 4" barrels are approved however.

The standard Sig Mosquito has a 3.9" barrel. Would have been doing everyone a favor if they didn't get approved though.

Originally Posted by Jexla

None (legally, see what systolic says below), it's the just way the police explained how they measure the end of the barrel.



Basically right. Personally not aware of examples where under 4" barrels are approved however. PNZ agreed to this with police, so they treat it like they have some law to back it up. There's non PNZ clubs that have not agreed to anything PNZ have said.




Alright, for one, the document I linked is on the police website so is far more valid than anything on any blog. Secondly it says:

“To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.”

Now, reading that it first says MSSA, so that excludes ALL A category firearms, then it also says "flash suppressor" so that implies 'flash hiders' only, not muzzle breaks or suppressors.



Thirdly, I'm a FOUNZ editor and a PNZ member who takes great interest in this stuff if that cuts the cake for ya

That is cool that you’re a PNZ member, so am I and with all sincerity that is great that you are a FOUNZ editor and that you take an active interest in the law/gun politics. I do appreciate that the KiwiGunblog is only a blog but it does seem well informed. The same information however is also posted on that Pistol NZ Website link I sent you and I do put stock in what they say.

The same is also in the Deerstalkers newsletter http://www.wairarapanzda.org.nz/wp-c...newsletter.pdf

The Pistol NZ link I posted for you to look at states:

"On the 13th of September the policy position below was distributed internally and externally. Since then I have been asked to provide clarification as to the points to be measured from and to. To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.

Mike McIlraith - Arms Act Service Delivery Group" – Posted September 2017
This contrasts with your link to the Police page which says:

Classification:
• MSSA firearms will be measured in their “reduced state” (buttstock folded or
collapsed) in order to determine their classification.
• Rifles and shotguns which collapse or fold, and which can still be fired in this
reduced state will be assessed for classification in the reduced state.
• ANY firearm which is less than 762mm will be classified as a pistol.

The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length.

It appears that the document that you refer to on the Police website which says length does not include a flash hider came out sometime in March 2017, and that a change, in that length does include a flash hider, came out from Police in September 2017.

According to Supt. Mike McIlraith this was sent to various groups outside and inside the Police, but that clarification does not appear to be on their website.
A lot of muzzle brakes (including the ones I have) are also flash hiders. I think they just say flash hider as that is a part of the definition of an MSSA. Whether it is a brake or flash hider, it surely is more important that it is “firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it”, but maybe that needs to be further clarified with Police.

As I said before I am not trying to start an argument, the only reason I asked if there was someone was here from the Kiwigunblog or Pistol NZ (I meant the people that run Pistol NZ) is I wanted to see their source document from Mike McIlraith. If anything it is the Police’s fault for not updating their website.

I'm going to be building an E cat AR-15 with an Oceania Defence QD can and I asked this very question on a thread (see link below) recently hence why I am so interested in it.

I haven’t read anything about A cats being measured differently and I suppose that is a question that should be asked to see if it the same as the way MSSA’s are not being measured (I.e if it is from the firmly fixed muzzle break to the end of the stock).
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....-length-43194/

Dude, you need to start reading what you're posting yourself.

"The length of ANY (THAT MEANS ALL) firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length."

Mcilraiths correspondence was done via EMAIL to the members of FCAF, nothing more.

Which he corrected the above saying ANY firearm is measured without any "attachments" with an exception for MSSA's ONLY.

"To determine overall length of the MSSA (That means ONLY MSSA's) the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it."

Therefore, I am agreeing, if you have an MSSA and it has a flash hider that makes up the rest of your 30" and you think you can prove that it is just that in court, you might do OK and you might not.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Dude, you need to start reading what you're posting yourself.

"The length of ANY (THAT MEANS ALL) firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length."

Mcilraiths correspondence was done via EMAIL to the members of FCAF, nothing more.

Which he corrected the above saying ANY firearm is measured without any "attachments" with an exception for MSSA's ONLY.

"To determine overall length of the MSSA (That means ONLY MSSA's) the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it."

Therefore, I am agreeing, if you have an MSSA and it has a flash hider that makes up the rest of your 30" and you think you can prove that it is just that in court, you might do OK and you might not.

Chill brother, I know what I wrote

"The length of ANY (THAT MEANS ALL) firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length."

Is from that original link about Measuring length of an MSSA firearm you posted, this says nothing about MSSA's being measured differently. Your link specifically mentions Flash hiders which would indicate to me they meant an MSSA in your link as well.

I later found Supt McIlraith later clarified later in the year regarding MSSA's:

"should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it. "
If the Police have released this as an internal and external clarification (which is what Pistol NZ says they have done) I would think you can reasonably take that as their position on the matter. I was asking if there was any Pistol NZ people or Kiwigunblog writers here as I wanted to see the original email/letter.

Anyways you said it yourself said we agree about MSSA's

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

You clearly have a MUCH lower threshold than I as to what qualifies as stupid.

Let’s put his question into context.

‘Yes your honour, I know the legal drink drive limit is 400mcg (yes 250mcg blah, blah) but I only blew 415. Surely that means I should be okay.’

Or

‘Yes your honour, I know theft is not legal, but it was only $15. That’s so close to nothing that I should be okay right?’

Or

‘Yes your honour, I know rape is illegal, but I only used 15mm of my penis. That’s so close to nothing that I should be let go right?’

Actually, you know what, you’re right it’s not a stupid question. It’s a fucking stupid question. If I was a mod I would kill it. Stupid shit like that on a public forum about a retarded setup (I mean really, a pistol grip only on a short shotgun?? WTF!!!) does us all no good!

Proudkiwi, what a well thought out informative and intelligent way you have addressed Outlander's four questions. I believe it was Seven Hawking who used a similar method.

I will re-word the single question posed by Outlander that you did address: How rigorously is the 762mm minimum gun length law enforced ? If I have a firearm 15mm shorter than 762mm will I be prosecuted. Using Police enforcement of the open road speed limit as an reference and the 5kmh or so allowed above that limit does the same apply to firearm length. 15mm/762mm = 1.968 % . To use the previously described analogy if I am prosecuted for having a firearm 747mm I should ipso facto be prosecuted for traveling at 101.968 kmh on the open road.

What about if he put a bayonet on the end?

Originally Posted by vulcannz

What about if he put a bayonet on the end?

Now there's a thought. Wonder what I could poke with it..?

To use the previously described analogy if I am prosecuted for having a firearm 747mm I should ipso facto be prosecuted for traveling at 101.968 kmh on the open road.

And you can be because you have still broken the law. The issue however is proof, and that requires accuracy. The testing equipment has to be certified, and there is also a margin of error tolerated by both the police and the courts, because your vehicle/speedo is unlikely to be completely accurate.

That however is not the case with a 1mm short firearm. That is simply determined to not comply. And so it is still a stupid question.

Unlawful possession of a pistol is not something that you want to get charged with. Firearms under 762mm are deemed to be pistols.

Originally Posted by Sidney

And you can be because you have still broken the law. The issue however is proof, and that requires accuracy. The testing equipment has to be certified, and there is also a margin of error tolerated by both the police and the courts, because your vehicle/speedo is unlikely to be completely accurate.

That however is not the case with a 1mm short firearm. That is simply determined to not comply. And so it is still a stupid question.

Unlawful possession of a pistol is not something that you want to get charged with. Firearms under 762mm are deemed to be pistols.

Thanks for that Sydney, you have clarified the matter fully and concisely . By the way I don't consider Outlanders question stupid however when a lot of people myself included just did not know the definitive answer. What was stupid was me getting the decimal points in the wrong place in my calcs, at least the equation result was correct. Sorry bout that worked it out in my head while shifting electric fences - must have got a stray shock.