Thread: Length of a rifle with welded on suppressor?

Originally Posted by Hermitage

All good with my oxy-acetylene gas setup. I also have a metal working lathe for the crown and threads. It'll be fine (once I settle the legal aspect )

Thank you, I appreciate it

Pretty sure its counted as barrel if it’s Permanently attached
But that was a few years ago (maybe 6)
When a mate built a very short 223 for goat culling with bailing dogs
His suppressor was counted in the oal as it was permanently attached

Not that I would ever suggest permanently attaching a suppressor
Alot of shit could go worng ether not or down the track

My suggestion would be make it 762.5 without suppressor and buy a short suppressor and deal with the little bit of length

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I'll wait to see if anyone on this forum knows. If not I'll phone the local arms officer tomorrow (has finished from work today).

I'm not phoning a lawyer....he might charge me for the info

Cant charge for advice over the phone unless you agree to employ him.

For those who are interested I spoke to the lawyer Nickolas Taylor and the Tauranga Arms Officer today regarding overall length with fixed suppressor.

The Police Policy concerned:
"Standard firearms that have muzzle attachments including muzzle breaks and silencers, will be measured for their overall length with the muzzle attachments removed"

Lawyer Nicholas Taylor:
"My view is that the court would take an extremely dim view of this 'policy', as it is not supported by any legislation and appears to be manifestly unreasonable and unworkable in practice.

If a muzzle break or silencer is required so that the overall length of the firearm is greater than 762mm, then it would be legal under current legislation but would need to be kept at all times on the firearm so as to comply with the Arms Act 1983.

Even though not strictly a legal requirement pursuant to the Arms Act 1983, a possible compromise position may be to have the muzzle device 'pinned', glued or welded to prevent the 'inadvertent removing' of a muzzle device thus reducing the overall required length to below 762mm.

If the muzzle device is fixed making the firearm 762mm in length or greater, it would fit under the Arms Act as compliant. Only by a deliberate and intentional modification by police of the firearm using both force and tools to remove the muzzle device would it be classed as under 762mm and therefore a pistol. However this forced removal would render the firearm into something that it was never intended by the owner to be and therefore render it inadmissible."

Arms Office Paul McLennan
(07) 577 4412
He said that Police Policy of measuring to the muzzle is only the Police interpretation of the Arms Act and it is therefore open to other opinions/interpretations.

He suggested that I email him with what I have in mind and include the lengths the rifle would be before and after installing a fixed suppressor, and also include any court judgements I know of regarding firearm overall length measurements.
He would send this email to the Head Office in Auckland and see what written reply comes back.

I'll get that email away tomorrow as I am interested in what they have to say. @rambo-6mmrem made a good point though and the more I have looked into welding my stainless steel suppressor onto the carbon steel barrel of my .22 the more problematic it seems ie:

"When stainless steel is joined with carbon steel, for example a stainless tube and carbon-steel tube in a heat exchanger, the steel will suffer from galvanic corrosion attack. You'll get a galvanic reaction (small battery forming), and the chromium oxide layer which gives stainless steel its corrosion resistance will be compromised. The stainless steel will rust where the carbon steel touches it. However problems with galvanic corrosion seldom occur between two stainless steels".

So it looks like it will only work if both the barrel and the suppressor are stainless steel.

Legalities aside, why in dogs name would you want to do something like that ?

1) it is almost guaranteed to wreck any accuracy you ever had - welding = heat, the muzzle is not something you want to heat to that extent
2) carbon build-up - do you have a way of taking the suppressor apart to clean it ?
3) good luck getting patches out of your suppressor when cleaning the barrel
4) and most importantly, WHEN the cops change their minds - all you will be left with is a fucked rifle, unless you happen to know of a way to add barrel length after cutting it...

It amazes me that some of you lazy old buggers just post without reading the thread before you start writting.

@ebf it's only 3 pages you had to read not 6+. All your questions were answered in the thread....but I suppose I will waste my time and answer them as you probably still won't read the 35 posts:

Originally Posted by ebf

Legalities aside, why in dogs name would you want to do something like that ?

1) it is almost guaranteed to wreck any accuracy you ever had - welding = heat, the muzzle is not something you want to heat to that extent
2) carbon build-up - do you have a way of taking the suppressor apart to clean it ?
3) good luck getting patches out of your suppressor when cleaning the barrel
4) and most importantly, WHEN the cops change their minds - all you will be left with is a fucked rifle, unless you happen to know of a way to add barrel length after cutting it...

Here are the answers @ebf (but next time read before you post:

Question:

Originally Posted by ebf

Legalities aside, why in dogs name would you want to do something like that ?

Answer :

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I have a contract for rabbit control around campgrounds and the short + silent rifle is the best way to go

Answer 1 :

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Even though not strictly a legal requirement pursuant to the Arms Act 1983, a possible compromise position may be to have the muzzle device 'pinned', glued or welded to prevent the 'inadvertent removing' of a muzzle device thus reducing the overall required length to below 762mm.

Answer 2:

Originally Posted by Hermitage

...(suppressor baffles come out from front of silencer for cleaning).

Answer 3:

Originally Posted by Hermitage

....(suppressor baffles come out from front of silencer for cleaning).

Answer 4:

Originally Posted by Hermitage

It's a Lithgow 1B single shot that I am looking at shorting myself.
If the police later pass it into law (762mm to end of muzzle), then no great loss to destroy said Lithgow.

Where did you take that quote re. galvanic corrosion? I would think that galvanic corrosion would be the least of the potential issues. Firstly, galvanic corrosion requires dissimilar metals, electrical contact and an electrolyte (e.g. water). When dry, no corrosion issue. Also, the galvanic difference between stainless and carbon steel is low, so driving force for corrosion is also low. Accelerated (slightly) corrosion in such a couple would also be expected on the carbon steel, not the stainless component.

Plenty of rifles have both carbon steel and stainless components. The issue is overstated in my opinion. If welding is the right idea (I'm not really commenting on the welding approach), then weld it on with 309 filler assuming a 304 or 316 stainless suppressor. Unless anyone knows whether stainless suppressors are likely to be a different alloy?

If there was any galvanic corrosion between the suppressor and barrel, then it would also occur in the other contact points, namely the threads, but it just doesn’t happen. It doesn’t need to be fully welded on, only requires a few small tacks.


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@Hermitage, guilty as charged

now...here is thought out of left field that may solve your issues.....have you tried an air rifle???? in campground it will arguably be safer...residents n visitors will quite likely be less scared by "a slug gun" than anything else.
also in that enviroment...why is the short length so important ???

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

now...here is thought out of left field that may solve your issues.....have you tried an air rifle???? in campground it will arguably be safer...residents n visitors will quite likely be less scared by "a slug gun" than anything else.
also in that enviroment...why is the short length so important ???

Yeah, that was out of the left field but actually makes a lot of sense....a LOT of sense. The rabbits around campgrounds are semi-tame as the campers feed them, so an air-rifle would be powerful enough as close range.

The reason I wanted a short length is that I would like to carry it in a bag and only get it out when a rabbit presents itself, then put it back in the bag. It's all about stealth around campgrounds, just not scaring the visitors. The rifle will only be used in the evenings when most campers are cooking/eating/watching TV etc.

I will do a bit of research on air-rifles...good thinking @Micky Duck

I know air rifles are used/ favored by contractors on inner city areas such as for instance the large Unitec campus in Auckland which is periodically overrun by semi tame rabbits. They usually try and do their work after hours. Nevertheless many of the public would not know an air rifle from an assault rifle. Its a gun, gun, gun. So its all about the optics. Not sure how you would shorten an air rifle and have it still do the job, or if they are available in a length to suit with sufficient power. But maybe an air Pistol would do the job. How good are they these days?

I have a Little Badger fold down 22lr, with a DPT can. The barrel is already 16", and the rifle folds in half. With CCI Quiets (40gr, 710fps) all you hear is the click of the trigger and the thunk of the impact. It's quieter than any air rifle I've seen. And cheap as chips.

As an alternative to welding, use high grade Loctite retaining compound. It was accepted by the Police in the 10 round magazine fiasco, and specifically mentioned in their official paperwork. If they accept it for one modification then they must accept it for another! Court precedent has ruled that any removal that requires specialised equipment (as opposed to just using your hands or common tools like a spanner) is considered a permanent installation that is part of the intended design. High grade Loctite requires a gas torch to remove.

Originally Posted by PaulNZ

Where did you take that quote re. galvanic corrosion? I would think that galvanic corrosion would be the least of the potential issues. Firstly, galvanic corrosion requires dissimilar metals, electrical contact and an electrolyte (e.g. water). When dry, no corrosion issue. Also, the galvanic difference between stainless and carbon steel is low, so driving force for corrosion is also low. Accelerated (slightly) corrosion in such a couple would also be expected on the carbon steel, not the stainless component.

Plenty of rifles have both carbon steel and stainless components. The issue is overstated in my opinion. If welding is the right idea (I'm not really commenting on the welding approach), then weld it on with 309 filler assuming a 304 or 316 stainless suppressor. Unless anyone knows whether stainless suppressors are likely to be a different alloy?

Burnt powder attracts water vapour and acts as a great electrolyte for electrolysis. It has been the demise of many crowns and threads where an aluminium can has been left on. Not sure how stainless would go. If the suppressor is fixed and you cannot clean well enough it could be an issue.