Thread: Looking for a good all around rifle

Just making space in the safe. Have another 7mm08 I already use more and a 280ai that has filled the gap this one was supposed to be in.

Looking at scope brands, in NZ we need real ruggedness and waterproofness.
Personally, I like a simple thick hair reticle so I can see it in low light.

Brands that have stood the test of time in NZ are: Leupold, Burris, Bushnell.
Ok brands include Zeiss and Swarovski which boast good glass but are lighter weight.
Heavy duty scopes too expensivecto start out with are Nightforce, Schmidt and Bender, Kahles.
Note that Steiner also make a scope called Ranger which is top notch, not to be confused with the cheap package deal brand.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

Gidday @HindmarshLM07
243 is often favoured by people from the UK where most deer are smaller species than we have here. Ive seen a few times hunters starti g out in NZ get a 243 and within a year are trading up.
Deer and chamois cartridges used here start around 308 case size and 6.5 like the Creedmore (7mm08 has been very popular the last decade) but 3006 size is more of an allrounder for the South Island. So, thats 270 and 280 or if you’re bigger built 300WSM and 7mmRem Mag. ( my mates have got these and they outperform my 7m08 but they are 90 kg plus and strong). You need enough power to put down a big red stag or a bull tahr (similar size to a beef bull) at 300m . Check out the remaining ft.lb energy out there. A lot of advice says 1000 ft.lb but that is for 20m shots at sika or red hinds inNorth Island bush.

Ftlbs of energy as a metric does not tell you anything about how a bullet will perform to kill an animal.

What kills animals is holes in vital organs. The bigger hole, the more efficiently the animal dies, up to a certain point beyond which it doesn't make any further difference.


Firstly it is important to put the bullet actually in the animal in the correct spot so that it will penetrate into the vital organs. Almost every rifle is precise enough for this, the primary factor that is a problem for this is shooter proficiency from field positions. The higher the recoil of the rifle, the more of a problem this is. The more expensive the cartridge, the less proficiency you will gain through practice.

Secondly, the projectile needs to penetrate into the vital organs. Almost any centrefire rifle bullet will do this if you shoot the animal in the right place. There is not a lot of meat and bone between air and lungs in a deer.


Next you need the bullet to expand and make a big hole in the vital organs. Issues with bullet performance are more commonly that the bullet does not expand enough in the right part of the bullet travel through the animal to actually make a big hole in the vital organs. Modern heavy-for-calibre tipped copper jacketed bullets at moderate speeds work beautifully for this, even in moderate diameters, and are available in a range of factory loads for nice mild-recoiling cartridges.




There are many of us happily and thoroughly effectively shooting all NZ game animal species (except I haven't seen anyone in a Wap block, yet) happily with .223 and good bullets placed in the right spot, which includes "through the shoulder into the lungs". Ftlbs of energy don't tell you that this works beautifully, and you certainly don't need "power" - you need an effective bullet in the right place.


I would and do hunt anything in New Zealand with a .223 or a 6mm with good bullets and I would recommend the same to anyone else - I would also recommend to all hunters that they actually gain some proficiency to shoot things in the right place.

You are correct Gimp. But I have one caution. You are very experienced. As proficient as a new hunter might be on the range. They are not used too the excitement and also do not have the experience too wait for the right shot angle. Or instinctively know where the exact spot to put a small projectile is.

Alot of learning gos out the door on those first animals. Thats something many of us have forgotten.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

You are correct Gimp. But I have one caution. You are very experienced. As proficient as a new hunter might be on the range. They are not used too the excitement and also do not have the experience too wait for the right shot angle. Or instinctively know where the exact spot to put a small projectile is.

Alot of learning gos out the door on those first animals. Thats something many of us have forgotten.

I agree and it's demonstrable that a heavier-recoiling cartridge doesn't help things in those situations....


You don't need to pick your shots any more or any less with, say, a 6mm shooting 103gr ELDX or a .223 shooting 80gr ELDM than you do with a .308. Either one needs to go into a part of the animal that it needs operational to stay alive and standing.

so why not use a 17hmr?

Originally Posted by STC

so why not use a 17hmr?

For one cause past fifty yards it simply won't go deep enough. And for two because it's illegal on public land

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

For one cause past fifty yards it simply won't go deep enough. And for two because it's illegal on public land

Yes correct. was intended as a joke.

Sorry I cant take people serious that want to suggest a 223 as a red deer cartridge for new shooters. Especially when they do not understand the differences in terminal ballistics between a 223 and lets say a 308...

Originally Posted by STC

so why not use a 17hmr?

If you test it and the bullet gets reliably into the vitals and works, I would say go for it.


Evidence would suggest that it won't. External ballistics are a bit unreliable too.


Evidence does however indicate that small-to-moderate centrefire cartridges with good bullets do work, tremendously well, and a heavier cartridge e.g .300WSM as suggested in the post I replied is absolutely not necessary and counterproductive

Originally Posted by gimp

If you test it and the bullet gets reliably into the vitals and works, I would say go for it.


Evidence would suggest that it won't. External ballistics are a bit unreliable too.


Evidence does however indicate that small-to-moderate centrefire cartridges with good bullets do work, tremendously well, and a heavier cartridge e.g .300WSM as suggested in the post I replied is absolutely not necessary and counterproductive

Aha @gimp in september we will see which of us is the sloppier shot !
Ive had excellent success with less than ideal placements using my 7mm08 and Nosler Ballistic Tips. Shots that drop them in a few paces would have resulted in 30-50m runaways with the 303 and 150gr Sierra Pro Hunter. Bullet choice is very key but you can only do so much experimenting yourself.

Broadly speaking, the volume of tissue disrupted is proportional to the kinetic energy delivered. More ft.lb allows more margin for error which we all need. It occurs to me that the larger volume can include more blood vessels even for a good hilar chest shot, which helps in earlycollapse.

Another point I was trying to make is that kinetic energy falls off quickly specially in the first 200m of flight and this can be more pronounced in medium or light for calibre bullets like say 80gr 6mm due to a lowish ballistic coefficient. Wind error is also more with lighter bullets, and that is hard to overcome.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

Aha @gimp in september we will see which of us is the sloppier shot !
Ive had excellent success with less than ideal placements using my 7mm08 and Nosler Ballistic Tips. Shots that drop them in a few paces would have resulted in 30-50m runaways with the 303 and 150gr Sierra Pro Hunter. Bullet choice is very key but you can only do so much experimenting yourself.

Broadly speaking, the volume of tissue disrupted is proportional to the kinetic energy delivered. More ft.lb allows more margin for error which we all need. It occurs to me that the larger volume can include more blood vessels even for a good hilar chest shot, which helps in earlycollapse.

Another point I was trying to make is that kinetic energy falls off quickly specially in the first 200m of flight and this can be more pronounced in medium or light for calibre bullets like say 80gr 6mm due to a lowish ballistic coefficient. Wind error is also more with lighter bullets, and that is hard to overcome.

I'd class those(light for calibre) as bad bullets and therefore outside the scope of what I recommend

Put a suppressor on rifle and recoil is negligible anyway.howa 270-243_308 suppressed are quieter and similar felt recoil to unsuppressed 223 and certainly less than the shotguns OP has and similar to his 357 mag. A bang and a push not a kick.

Originally Posted by caberslash

Many of those older rifles will have a rusty tube for a barrel or be rooted in some form or the other, be up for silly money at the gunshop as a trade-in or a dreamer price on TardMe, no warranty on that!

Been there done that, bought an L461 which some idiot had reamed from .222 to .223 improperly and it would not close on factory ammo. Sorted in the end but took several tries. Did manage to get a first year 243 Rem Mod 7 for £150 which shoots fine but that's another story.

Sorry you got a lemon.
I've brought 2 Brno 465s, a mod 70 in 300 wsm and a vixen222 in the last 12 months or so and they all shoot bloody great. The hornets are around seventy yrs old and still shoot tight. And they are a pleasure to look at with their wooden stocks.

Originally Posted by SmokeyJason

Sorry you got a lemon.
I've brought 2 Brno 465s, a mod 70 in 300 wsm and a vixen222 in the last 12 months or so and they all shoot bloody great. The hornets are around seventy yrs old and still shoot tight. And they are a pleasure to look at with their wooden stocks.

you beauty we have certainly given this bloke some reading and great discussions - we are all different - but sitting around a camp fire over a few beers I know what I want hauled out to go ohhh ahhh over and its not a new Tikka sorry well not really

To be clear I wouldn't recommend that this bloke get a .223 because it is difficult to get good factory ammunition for it that uses decent bullets.

I would strongly recommend a .243, 6mm or 6.5 Creedmoor though.