Thread: Looking for a good all around rifle

We seem to get a lot of these sorts of posts, and then pages and pages of good helpful replies. But it always concerns me the amount of well intentioned "conflicting information" that is posted. Many of the people wanting to know what rifle is suitable for x,y,z have had little real world exposure to centrefire shooting and ballistic's and I can see so many of them going WTF! and still walking away none the wiser. In a perfect world we'd all be sitting around the campfire and debating this until the sun rose the next day. And then more importantly, we'd go out and let the new guy have a crack with a number of different rifles and different calibres to see what suits them, what recoil they are comfortable with, how much actual shooting they intend to do, how much practice they can afford etc etc.

We all have our favourite calibres, our go to rifles. And in my experience there aint too many of us old farts that cant put the bullet within that tiny little circle that is required for a clean kill. But a newbie probably doesnt have those years of muscle memory, the confidence to slot it in that hole each and every time they shoot at an animal.

My 2 cents worth to the OP is try a few rifles, try a few different calibres, go shoot some cans, some gongs, some paper and see what suits you at this stage in your shooting. I see you live in ChCh, im not that far away, PM me and we can arrange a day for you to just go shoot some shit, with several calibres and several rifles. My best mate for 38 years, when asked which rifle/calibre would he suggest for x,y,z. And his standard reply was " the one where the bullet and the target connect". Gimp has it right, doesnt matter too much what the calibre or the bullet is, if it dont go in the right place then it aint any good. If recoil is an issue, a 7-08 may be too much for a beginner, if the rifle dont fit or is inaccurate, then the calibre dont matter.

Personally for a first choice I think the 243 is perfectly adequate if it is accurate. The 243 has been killing animals no problem for how many years?....60, 70? Brand new, second hand dont matter so long as it is accurate.

For a beginners point and squirt rifle I think that you need something between 6 and 8mm, firing a bullet of between 90 and 165 grains, between 2600 and 3100 fps.

Then you need to go and shoot it until you are competent, and enjoy yourself along the way.

As a rule, I prefer long, pointy, soft bullets - the deer we have in NZ are, with the exception of Sambar, less than 600mm through the body so you don't need armour piercing projectiles to get into the good bits.

For a beginner less recoil is easier to shoot well, but this can be mitigated by a well fitting stock and a good recoil pad (plus hearing protection - plugs, muffs and/or a can).

I've shot enough deer past 400m with a 6XC firing 87 grain vmaxes to have no concerns about a 243/6 Creed on deer at sensible velocities, so start there and go to it.

@gimp thats a key question, isnt it ? What anatomical target !

First, I’m talking about a shot that will put the animal on the ground within about 20m.
Using the 303 I got pretty good at tracking as they usually ran 30-50m . Thought that was normal till I changed to the 7mm08, which as slightly more accurate but had much better bullets (NBT).

Second, I can hit a 100mm target at 300m almost every time on the range, if shooting prone with a rest. But kneeling, squeezed up against a tree with 10 seconds to fire, I’d miss every now and then even at 50m (yet still be successful on a 20cm plate). So a 243 would be OK for me in the bush but not all round, specially in the South Island.

Im thinking of hitting bone in the neck (50-100mm depending on size of animal).
I’m thinking of a bullet passing through the largest hilar blood vessels or heart, again 100mm. The temporary cavity wont necessarily disrupt these so you need a direct hit with the main bullet or cut up from fragments.
The 270 burns 50% more powder, calculates at 50% more ft.lb K.E., and delivers 50% more lead fragments than the 243 (roughly …) so a hit in the outer lungs say 200mm dia can disrupt 50% more lung volume including medium sized blood vessels and also reach out to the inner hilum. Sure, a 243 or even a 223 will kill with the wider shot but not so well. A number of animals will be more dead with the 270 than they are with the lighter cartridge . Of course its not exact like that but those are my reasons.

It's a nice theory but in practise the evidence is that a good .224" or 6mm bullet drops them more or less on the spot when shot more or less anywhere in the front shoulder, same as a .270 or any other cartridge with a good bullet. Can't get deader than dead.


This thread is pretty informative https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ml#post1593826

Originally Posted by HindmarshLM07

So a .243 for the occasional deer and small game then get a 308, 30-06 etc for larger game and distance in future?

I would go 6.5 Creedmoor and use it for everything. A 6mm, 25 cal or 6.5mm is a big enough bullet for any game in NZ.
30-06 isn't going to do anything for you other than recoil more. 308 is similar but at least has the advantage of ammo availability and can be had a bit cheaper, by 6.5CM ammo for the most part is the same price and as readily available as 308.

I'd much rather spend twice as much on a single rifle and scope, than split my budget between a 243 and a 308.
If you want a rifle for varmint hunting then 223 is the easy button.

Thank you, a flattering comment Gimp. You asked for theory.

Changing tack a little, what 223 bullets would you recommend for red deer and what sort of ranges do they work for ?

73, 75, 80, 88 gr ELDM

69, 77 gr Tipped Matchking


69, 74, 80gr Targex


Probably some Bergers in similar weights.


Maybe the 80gr ELDX - I'm going to try some of those soon.


Good to 400m + depending on your MV - you need >1800fps impact velocity for expansion. That's 475m from my load.

Most aren't available in NZ in a factory load so I would recommend this gentleman purchase a 6.5CM or .243 and shoot something like the 140gr ELDM or 90gr ELDX respectively and be happy and confident that it will and does work as well as anything else in the world for shooting NZ deer at conventional (and longer) ranges

Originally Posted by gimp

It's a nice theory but in practise the evidence is that a good .224" or 6mm bullet drops them more or less on the spot when shot more or less anywhere in the front shoulder, same as a .270 or any other cartridge with a good bullet. Can't get deader than dead.


This thread is pretty informative https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ml#post1593826

Ive, just out of interest, gone through that entire thread. So whats there? The vast majority is fallow deer. After that comes red hinds, yearlings and spiker's.

Whats also there is a few very experienced hunters killing most of the animals.

Whats not there? Many big mature red stags. Roughly half of those that are there, have been shot by one person.

What that tells me is that its a tool for experienced hunters who can push the calibre too its limits. Who have the knowledge and patience to wait for the perfect shot, or even pass up a chance.

Whats also not there? any reference too situations where things did not go to plan.

Im going to use an analogy now. A good big Boxer will always beat a good small boxer!

There are things a 270, since it was used as an example, can do much better than a 223. Tough angled shots. Breaking the spine on a big animal if the shot gos high. Running shots where you dont have the same ability to put the bullet exactly right. Follow up shots when things have gone wrong.

This advantage of course lessens as you go up, so yes a 243 is a better choice, but there is still some advantage too a bigger projectile. Or we would all be using the small calibers for everything.

In my 55 + yrs of hunting I've only seen two impressive bull tahr, both were 600 plus and for that I now carry a 300 wsm. Unfortunately I've never again seen those particular bad boys or anything approaching that size. I'm saying carry a big boy for big bad boys.

Since the original post states for small game and the odd big game I would suggest the 223, sure the biggest pills I have seen for factory ammo is the 60gr hornady whitetail which knock deer over just fine.

I find it a little amusing the guys suggesting some of the bigger calibres as I can't believe anyone would have the dollars to use these big boys on rabbits and possums as you would soon chalk up hundreds of dollars and it would be just plain un-economic.

Get a 223 practice on targets, then move onto rabbits and finally go and shoot some deer.
Enjoy shooting a lovely accurate riffle with no recoil and you will shoot anything you want.

OP already has 22lr and shotguns for small stuff and 357 mag for close stuff. Well said Mr @whanahuia... The same has been said about wee 224s for fourty years.the heavier projectiles and the mono projectiles have upped the anti but it's a small bit of metal and sometimes a big hunk of animal.

thank you Mickey Duck little common sense - no one is suggesting he use heavy calibers on rabbits and he has a .22 for that and target work - so dont know where that comes from - 223 on rabbits that is expensive and he has a .22 - okay my man forget all the talk on here about projectiles yes all true but for you not needed as you are not reloading so you will be using what you buy from the store - reload later if you wish - trade that .357 lever action on a good .308 7mm-08 270 25-06 suppressor will null recoil somewhat and you will tackle most deer - I would say a .223 but its limited on bigger deer thats the worry - not a fan on the 6mm calibres even though many like them so I never recommend them and would not buy one - if wallabys become a target the above will all do the job and its good target practice for deer - having tried .243 and 6mm went away disappointed and did not last long in my gunsafe - better overgunned than undergunned - leave playing with projectiles if you get real keen and start reloading - meantime buy ammo and get out there - you must be beginning to see why so many have muliple rifles in their safe there is no one awnser - but after 50 years of hunting one thing I do know with deer - blow a big hole = big blood trail =and better knockdown 30 cal or 7mm get one in those calibres get to know it and how it handles and have it well zeroed - dont get into the temptation to continually swap rifles caliber's - used to take a guy out here and everytime he would turn up with a different rifle and caliber - quess what he shot zilch - one time 4 fallow were 250 away and he had a 30-30 he did not fire a shot- just was not confident with it

If you in the thick stuff, shooting on dusk, a blood trail is nice to help find an animal that runs on the shot. I like a projectile to expand AND exit. Might not relate to the OP’s question for small game and occasional deer but builds on Whanahuia’s earlier argument for a bit more energy. We all know a few hunts creates a need for a dedicated deer rifle..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by whanahuia

There are things a 270, since it was used as an example, can do much better than a 223. Tough angled shots. Breaking the spine on a big animal if the shot gos high. Running shots where you dont have the same ability to put the bullet exactly right. Follow up shots when things have gone wrong.

This advantage of course lessens as you go up, so yes a 243 is a better choice, but there is still some advantage too a bigger projectile. Or we would all be using the small calibers for everything.

Wrong.

Learn a bit about sectional density and bullet construction.

The headstamp (FYI, that's the number and letter (s) that are on the back of the brass casing) don't matter as much as what comes out of the muzzle.

There is no such thing as a '270' or '223' bullet.

People were killing animals with round lead balls but they were hardly much better than the wound left by an arrow, unless that ball struck bone and broke through, you'd get little in terms of expansion and fragmentation.

Also on that note, with regards to the 'old rifles better/rose tinted glasses/hunting from the nursing home' brigade, there were probably old timers telling people that the musket was just as good and it wasn't worth spending money on these new fangled 'rifles' with fancy barrels... get an old blunderbuss it will be just as good!

Originally Posted by caberslash

Wrong.

Learn a bit about sectional density and bullet construction.

The headstamp (FYI, that's the number and letter (s) that are on the back of the brass casing) don't matter as much as what comes out of the muzzle.

There is no such thing as a '270' or '223' bullet.

People were killing animals with round lead balls but they were hardly much better than the wound left by an arrow, unless that ball struck bone and broke through, you'd get little in terms of expansion and fragmentation.

Also on that note, with regards to the 'old rifles better/rose tinted glasses/hunting from the nursing home' brigade, there were probably old timers telling people that the musket was just as good and it wasn't worth spending money on these new fangled 'rifles' with fancy barrels... get an old blunderbuss it will be just as good!

Honestly. Thats a stupid response!

Sectional density is important for a number of reasons, But no one realistically believes that a good 277 calibre projectile doesn't have plenty enough sectional density. That sounds like an argument to use when you have nothing else. With a 270, what "comes out of the barrel " is a projectile with more than enough sectional density, around twice the weight, Travelling at the same or greater speed depending on exact projectile being used, All things being equal- exactly the same ability for the projectile to function correctly re expansion and impart its energy, more energy to impart, and a greater projectile diameter.

All of those factors help a projectile kill well.

For the last 30 years ive used both calibers with .223 and .270 on thier head stamp. Both a great in thier own way. I am under no illusions on which one though has the greater ability on big game.