Thread: New Defence Force rifles need firing pins replaced

Re the .223-round, it was chosen for a bunch of reasons mentioned here already; to wound as mentioned;and tie-up more resources, again as mentioned ,for weight of ammo and ability to carry more, plus a lot of pressure from other countries to standardise (for obvious reasons). I dont think they even considered the long-range effect of tumbling projo's, on size of wound-channels etc., as pointed-out on here also. There was a general mindset, that conflicts were going to be more close-up and personal (fek knows why) and they got proved wrong in the Middle-East, with longer range needed. It surprises me that they've stayed with the caliber, as they were openly discussing the need to go back to a larger caliber. Other countries have already done just that, I guess they dont want to turn up at a "Venue", with the Wrong-Bat

Originally Posted by Cordite

@300CALMAN

Yes, agree BT helps at all velocities, less at the beginning.

The berger VLD reminds me of the .303 mk VIIIz bullet, which was designed for extended range MG fire. Less bearing surface (look below at the narrow parralel portion, and cannelure further forwards - they would be far off the rifling when chambered) lovely spire, boat tail to boot. Hate to think of how it did in variable-throated variable headspaced LE rifles - but accuracy is no concern with MGs if you get an extra Km max range!

Attachment 95511

Yes accuracy is apparently not a big issue with MGs, the story as i understand it was the BREN was considered to accurate too produce an acceptable beaten zone? Please someone who knows more correct me...

Unfortunately drag is drag, light high velocity projectiles which bleed velocity will loose terminal effect quickly.

Originally Posted by rewa

Re the .223-round, it was chosen for a bunch of reasons mentioned here already; to wound as mentioned;and tie-up more resources, again as mentioned ,for weight of ammo and ability to carry more, plus a lot of pressure from other countries to standardise (for obvious reasons). I dont think they even considered the long-range effect of tumbling projo's, on size of wound-channels etc., as pointed-out on here also. There was a general mindset, that conflicts were going to be more close-up and personal (fek knows why) and they got proved wrong in the Middle-East, with longer range needed. It surprises me that they've stayed with the caliber, as they were openly discussing the need to go back to a larger caliber. Other countries have already done just that, I guess they dont want to turn up at a "Venue", with the Wrong-Bat

I guess you can't argue with the weight and capacity arguments. But everything is a trade off, ever carried 200 rounds of 5.56 link??? Well 7.62 link is a shit load heavier but if some sod is trying to RPG you from 800 m I bet you will be glad you brought that and not the 5.56.

Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? .

Originally Posted by Tankd

Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? .

Haha and if you "Wound" someone with their finger on a suicide belt button.

Originally Posted by Cordite

@300CALMAN

Yes, agree BT helps at all velocities, less at the beginning.

The berger VLD reminds me of the .303 mk VIIIz bullet, which was designed for extended range MG fire. Less bearing surface (look below at the narrow parralel portion, and cannelure further forwards - they would be far off the rifling when chambered) lovely spire, boat tail to boot. Hate to think of how it did in variable-throated variable headspaced LE rifles - but accuracy is no concern with MGs if you get an extra Km max range!

Attachment 95511

Mk VIIIz was for belt-fed machine guns only. It was developed to compete with the 7.92x57 IS sS load, introduced by the Germans in either 1917 or 1918 (cannot remember which, right now).

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

Yes accuracy is apparently not a big issue with MGs, the story as i understand it was the BREN was considered to accurate too produce an acceptable beaten zone? Please someone who knows more correct me...

Unfortunately drag is drag, light high velocity projectiles which bleed velocity will loose terminal effect quickly.

Accuracy is necessary for accurate support fire during flank attack. The Bren and ZB26 are apparently very good in this situation. The MG34 vehicle mount guns and MG42 ground mount guns were reportedly ideal for mowing down soldiers crossing narrow streets and great for suppressive fire, so long as the ammo supply held out BUT I have heard a claim that they were not sufficiently accurate in the offensive role. I have just acquired a copy of Captain Shore’s book about sniping post D-Day in Europe. He reportedly makes some comments about the German machine guns but I have yet to sit down and read the book from cover to cover.

The days of gentlemanly warfare have changed in the last 20 years
The Geneva convention was signed in the days of people playing tag I’m out rather I’m going to get you anyway tag away we have now in a lot of conflicts - the ideas of wounding and extra resources don’t apply

Replace the MARs firing pins by replacing the entire upper with this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BDyA6I2Ovk
Sh#t while we're at it may as well put a Geissele trigger in as well

Originally Posted by Tankd

Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? .

yeah it still confuses me.

223 was supposed to tumble on impact till the twist rate was cahnged and turned it into a needle shooter. the 'wound' excuse was to cover uip the stuff up. reality is a wounded solider will come back a bit smarter. a dead solider stays dead.

The wounding "idea " probably was more a result of the turn of the 19 th century . Whereby people where supposedly "Enlightened " as to humanity , and there was an attempt to enshrine it into the Hague Convention ? . Unfortunately they found that spitzer projectile tumbled on impact after having to discard there soft points .
I love the " The days of gentlemanly warfare have changed in the last 20 years " , the reason Gentlemen , officers , where introduced to Warfare was to limit the killing by bringing some order to the so called soldiers who where generally made up from the dregs and prisons . Some Officers feared their men more than the enemy .

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

I’m not sure your understanding of BC is as strong as you think it is.

Drag is drag so it’s entirely accurate to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy faster than a boat tail.

@Proudkiwi

I agree.

What I'm specifically I'm talking about in terms of BC is that BC is not fixed for a given bullet, but BC varies according to the velocity the bullet is traveling at. Causes of drag are made up in different proportions at different velocities as the bullet goes slower and slower, front drag predominant at the fast outset, tail drag dominant at the slower ending.

Both spire tip and boat tail do act in overcoming drag all the way. The spire tip is the star at the speedy beginning of the bullet's travel, and the boat tail gets its own Oscar at the final part of the journey. But for short journeys, as envisaged for say the 7.62x39, the added complication of a boat tail may not be considered worthwhile in an agricultural implement like the AK. If you have a fine rifle that is sterling at handling Berger VLDs, you however have no reason not to use boat tails for work at any range.

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

I’m not sure your understanding of BC is as strong as you think it is.

Drag is drag so it’s entirely accurate to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy faster than a boat tail.

Drag is a drag, but so is the friction / resistance of the air, which is greater the faster the bullet goes. My understanding is that a really pointy design will have less frictional resistance. As the bullet slows to subsonic speed it is the force of gravity that has more effect and all bullets are about the same because of time of flight is the same.

On a more important note where can I buy one of the ex service Steyrs ??

Originally Posted by rewa

Re our new Army "Guns", didnt we see a similar thing with the Steyr ? They demonstrated a well-made (..ish) German one, then supplied us with crap made elsewhere. I'll bet the demo-models were well-crafted, In-House,in The States, not Mexico

Apparently, they had army armourers inspecting all of the guns before they even left the factory and were shipped to NZ

They should have gone to a proven military sized company ? , not a small custom shop , they donot have the experience of the bigger/older arms companies , ie FN , HK , Sig Colt Canada .