Thread: P.L.A don't even use Chinese Scopes

Originally Posted by bunji

I have wondered for years why China,Russia etc have not reversed engineered Trijicon type sights & Red dots for use in their Military after all these years of them falling into the other sides hands,even the Russian special forces use American sights .

They probably just buy them online like everyone else.

They just know quality when they see it, and know the Capitalists will sell it to them, even if it has to go through an intermediary, to cleanse it so to speak.

Many years ago was helping pull mines out of the ground in places like Cambodia and Mozambique. One nasty little Chinese mine was a A pers mine known as a type 72b. It had an anti disturbance circuit built into it. You would open the mine up and what was staring back at you? a silicone chip with the 'M' of Motorola stamped on it. They would sell their grandmother if there was a buck to be made

Originally Posted by bunji

I have wondered for years why China,Russia etc have not reversed engineered Trijicon type sights & Red dots for use in their Military after all these years of them falling into the other sides hands,even the Russian special forces use American sights .

Well they did try and produce a local rifle scope. Going off the article linked:

"The Chinese Army's QBU-88 rifle did use a Chinese made scope (Chinese copy based on a Swarovski optical design from the 1990s), but it's no longer being made since its manufacturer, Pearl River Optronic, went out of business a couple years back."

Makes you wonder how a company can go out of business with a government contract to supply close to 2 million scopes! (PLA's total manpower around 2 million).

Maybe the Chinese company's marketing department shouldn't have offered their 'no questions asked lifetime scope warranty' to the military

Originally Posted by Hermitage

I know that Chinese scopes get a bad reputation, but maybe it is deserved if even their own Army and Police force do not use Chinese made optics.

I've linked an interesting article and although it's 5 years old and things may have changed, back in 2015 the PLA and Chinese Police used Swarovski and Kahles scopes.

"The Chinese military and law enforcement agencies have been using a small number of Swarovski and Kahles scopes on their semi-auto and bolt-action precision rifles. The difference is that the Kahles they have been using were the Helica series of hunting scopes."

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...taiwan-strait/

if they buy "a small number of Swarovski and Kahles scopes", and knowing they have the largest army and police force by head count in the whole world, wouldn't that necessitate the implication that the rest, which is the vast majority of their army and police, do not use Khale and Swarovski?

The same argument in your title can be applied to Americans too. Some American police force and special forces use S&B and maybe Khales. recently the US Marine is looking at using The SMASH scope, an Israeli outfit. Does this mean the US army does not even trust US scopes?

New Zealand too makes various firearm parts. Am I right in saying that no New Zealand firearm part marker has a current contract with New Zealand military or police? does that may what we produce are sub-standard and not worth using? surely it would not mean that.

Different applications demand different grade of gear. There is no denial that Khales is better than any Chinese brand so where there is critical application, using important superior gear is warranted. But it does not mean for less critical applications lesser gear cannot or is not used.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

if they buy "a small number of Swarovski and Kahles scopes", and knowing they have the largest army and police force by head count in the whole world, wouldn't that necessitate the implication that the rest, which is the vast majority of their army and police, do not use Khale and Swarovski?

The same argument in your title can be applied to Americans too. Some American police force and special forces use S&B and maybe Khales. recently the US Marine is looking at using The SMASH scope, an Israeli outfit. Does this mean the US army does not even trust US scopes?

New Zealand too makes various firearm parts. Am I right in saying that no New Zealand firearm part marker has a current contract with New Zealand military or police? does that may what we produce are sub-standard and not worth using? surely it would not mean that.

Different applications demand different grade of gear. There is no denial that Khales is better than any Chinese brand so where there is critical application, using important superior gear is warranted. But it does not mean for less critical applications lesser gear cannot or is not used.

Plus the simple reality China specialises in reverse engineering and bulk production.

They make junk, in vast, subsidised quantities. Culturally, high quality production is something they have no tradition of.

^^ Eh?? You serious?? They don't make Nukes, Fighter jets (even the Israeli's stole the plans to theirs), have a space programme, invented gun powder (admittedly a coupla thousand years ago) etc etc. Cultural blindness (thats the polite term, some might be a bit blunt and call it racism) makes for dangerous under-estimation of adversaries . . . .

The Chinese are famous for making inferior rubbish items

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

if they buy "a small number of Swarovski and Kahles scopes", and knowing they have the largest army and police force by head count in the whole world, wouldn't that necessitate the implication that the rest, which is the vast majority of their army and police, do not use Khale and Swarovski?

The same argument in your title can be applied to Americans too. Some American police force and special forces use S&B and maybe Khales. recently the US Marine is looking at using The SMASH scope, an Israeli outfit. Does this mean the US army does not even trust US scopes?

New Zealand too makes various firearm parts. Am I right in saying that no New Zealand firearm part marker has a current contract with New Zealand military or police? does that may what we produce are sub-standard and not worth using? surely it would not mean that.

Different applications demand different grade of gear. There is no denial that Khales is better than any Chinese brand so where there is critical application, using important superior gear is warranted. But it does not mean for less critical applications lesser gear cannot or is not used.

Looks like you didn't read the article or my post above yours that outlines how the PLA did use a Chinese made 3-9x but the company went out of business (quality control issues?).

The fact is that for every one Chinese company that is slowing improving it's product quality, there are probably 10 out there that are still cutting corners and there are probably another 10 new companies coming into the market by cutting even more corners.

China has not been able to shake off the shackles of low-quality manufacturing because they do have embarrassingly poor quality control issues.

The biggest problem I see with most Chinese scopes is a high return rate/high defect rate, and to achieve low return rates usually requires the optics company to self-manage quality control on site at the Chinese factory. And the on site quality control team have to work 24/7, as even good quality on one model scope line doesn't guarantee good quality on another line.

The image below can be used for rifle scopes as well....

Originally Posted by Paddy79

The Chinese are famous for making inferior rubbish items

The chinese will make whatever you want. You can spec your goods high or spec them low.

A lot of "high quality stuff" is made in China and has a brand sticker slapped on it.

before we rubbish chines goods, most of you are viewing you on a chinese made product. bets its more reliable than the kiwi made tv's etc we had in the 70-80's. pay good money from the chinese and you get good product

now i think the CCP is an evil empire, but the chinese people are a damn good bunch. the issue lays that most people choose price over quality. you want a cctv system for $400 then go for it. a security system for $200 go for it.
they will be crap

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you get what you pay for, from china and from a reputable dealer you can get great stuff. my BSA scope is bloody awesome, a wristwatch i bought from ali lasted 5 years and kept great time

its all a case of caveat emptor

Originally Posted by gonetropo

and my last lines of text disappeared !


you get what you pay for, from china and from a reputable dealer you can get great stuff. my BSA scope is bloody awesome, a wristwatch i bought from ali lasted 5 years and kept great time

its all a case of caveat emptor

But that's the problem...China is the kingdom of "caveat emptor".
The buyer who doesn't beware faces a daily gamut of frustration and disappointment with substandard purchases — clothes unraveling in the first wash, lids not fitting pots and pans, and kitchen gadgets exploding as soon as they're switched on are as frequent as the scandals involving substandard and often toxic milk powder, food and medicines.

Originally Posted by gonetropo

pay good money from the chinese and you get good product

No you don't...you still need your own quality control on site.
You can call it one of the paradoxes of modern industry: there are many multinational companies that have built global empires by contracting out manufacturing to companies in China. And these multinationals are selling the Chinese made consumer goods generally without cutting corners or letting quality standards slip because they have their own quality control teams in the factory. Yet Chinese firms aren't replicating that success in China itself....there the quality control is substandard and the products are poor....just ask any avg Chinese consumer.

My sis has a factory in China cranking out product. They bent over backwards to ensure QC was up to par, went as far as bringing the Factory manager over here, and his 2IC's, showing them around, arranging for their only son to get an entire Western secondary school education here in NZ at a top end school...the list goes on. After five years the manager did the dirty on them, quality slipped and he did them in the eye for 2 mil. It took going over there and bribing the already bribed with bigger money, and hiring nastier thugs than he had, to get it all sorted.

As lots have already said: Caveat emptor

Originally Posted by Tussock

A free trade agreement with kleptomaniac communist reverse engineers is flat out the nuttiest piece of foreign policy anyone ever came up with.

This.

Originally Posted by Paddy79

The Chinese are famous for making inferior rubbish items

Yeah they do, but they also play the long game. Something we need to start doing. Our society is too hooked on short term gain.

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