Thread: Quietest firearm possible?

Originally Posted by tommygun

Yep I see there is a De Lisle reproduction on trademe at the moment, but they want $2000 for it.... I have a Baikal 7.62x39 and it shares the can on my .308, it is quiet with subsonic loads but not as quiet as some of the .22's i've handled, I think @Friwi must be right, my mate has a Marlin XT22 with a suppressor and it make less noise than an air rifle. Maybe i'll stick with the 7.62x39, I've been using 150 grain Sierra .311 Pro Hunters with 7 grains of Trail Boss, are cast bullets worth trying?

Yeah I reckon that guy is fuckin dreaming - mine cost 1200

It's also heavy enough that it is more of a range gimmick than a serious hunting rifle - if I was to go for the same effect these days I wouldn't hesitate to modernise the design from the original idea and make it lighter - mine's only good for about 80m or so too which is short enough to be in consideration when looking at what sort of end use you want it for

Originally Posted by Tommy

Troy PAR 300 blackout | Trade Me

And they aren't dear either

I've seen them but I didn't think the upper could be swapped with a regular AR one? I assumed the police wouldn't have approved them for import if you could take the upper off an A cat semi-auto AR and put it on the pistol-grip, big mag lower on the Troy and have an un-registered E cat.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

what Tim has shown above would be my choice hands down..... all the hard work is already done. running a 151grn hp cast projectile off trademe powered by around 7grns of trail boss is QUIETER than a long barrelled norinco .22 with suppressor (even a big one) Im using a GW Spartan can on the x39mm
Ive shot bunnies with it and its mates don't move unless you cycle the bolt,or mate shoots next one with .22 LOL.
as said above be VERY aware of background as subsonics whizz off into distance rather alarmingly .

Originally Posted by tommygun

Yep I see there is a De Lisle reproduction on trademe at the moment, but they want $2000 for it.... I have a Baikal 7.62x39 and it shares the can on my .308, it is quiet with subsonic loads but not as quiet as some of the .22's i've handled, I think @Friwi must be right, my mate has a Marlin XT22 with a suppressor and it make less noise than an air rifle. Maybe i'll stick with the 7.62x39, I've been using 150 grain Sierra .311 Pro Hunters with 7 grains of Trail Boss, are cast bullets worth trying?

With the cast bullets in 303 cal (7.62x39 is the same as 303 rather than 7.62x51 which in same as 308) the 180gr and 220gr cast with or without gas check hold their energy a bit further than the 150s. They still rise and fall at the same rate as the 150s as long as they are doing the same speed. Definitely worth trying as they are far cheaper than using copper jacketed bullets and at the lower speeds the softer lead seems to mushroom better than the ones designed for higher speeds. (Though deform is probably a better word than mushroom.) You do need just a grain or so more of the trail boss to get the same 1000 fps to stay subsonic. Projectils are around 8 or 9 cents each when you start making your own.....add a 10c primer, and a few cents worth of powder and it makes for cheap shooting too, not that this is the aim of said project...

One advantage of the break open rifles is overall length is not an issue as it is when feeding from a magazine. So the 220gr will fit no matter how long it is.

Originally Posted by timattalon

We have set up a couple Baikal 7.62x39s for sub loads. We used a Gunworks suppressor that is made for that purpose and cast bullets (sometimes with gas checks depending on what velocities you are chasing- Anything over 1100 fps is where we start to use them. At about 1300fps from memory, the lead melts into gobs of metal spittle without them. ) .

Pistol calibres should work well too.

For what its worth, this rig brand new will set you back $900 including shipping. That is rifle, threading, suppressor and red dot scope and freight. And I have one left.

Unless your shooting gongs or targets,Holding energy in that upper range of weight is useless. A .30 cal 150 gr HP cast lead bullet at subsonic speeds travels through two goats standing next to each others( experienced it 3 different times at 30m, 90 m and 156 m!) so any more weight on your projectile is unproductive. ( inless you want to shoot through 4 or 5 goats standing next to each other's, good luck, you may as well play the lotto).
Because you are adding more powder you generate more noise. And in some cases, the rifling twist used for stabilising normal bullets at supersonic speeds is not fast enough to stabilise heavier bullets at subsonic speeds, so you can loose on accuracy.

Cast bullets are definitely cheaper than the jacketed bullets, but I have yet to see a cast projectile shooting as accuratly as some jacketed projectiles do at subsonic speeds.

Single shot Bergara 300 BLK?

It could be an option. But beware, they have been produced and imported with a 1 in 8" and with a 1 in 14" twist. The 1 in 14" might still work with some cast bullets of 150 gr, other wise 110 gr with trail boss behind would do an excellent possum gun.

i like the .30 calibers for subsonics, nothing against .44s or anything else but i didn't see any real advantage for me with bigger bullets at sub speed over the .30s, not to say there isn't i just didn't see it with the limited time i tried them.
But for someone else buying bullets that are made for low velocity the pistol bullets would be a real advantage.

like Friwi i saw no real advantage going with the heavy weights, tests on penetration showed similar performance with 170, 180, 190, 212 grain bullets in wet newspaper and animals at all ranges.
But there is advantages with the soft cast heavy longer bullets if you want to modify them with BIG hollow points . . . and i just like em

in this case the hollow point extends down to the first driving band . .. they are a little more deadly on animals but not as much as i would have thought . . best is still a bullet with a wide flat point placed in the boiler room with care.

the biggest decision to me is what kind of optics/sights are you going to use . .. . with the right kind you can shoot with confidence to well past the usual ranges subs are used at . .. good luck

Originally Posted by tommygun

Yep I see there is a De Lisle reproduction on trademe at the moment, but they want $2000 for it.... I have a Baikal 7.62x39 and it shares the can on my .308, it is quiet with subsonic loads but not as quiet as some of the .22's i've handled, I think @Friwi must be right, my mate has a Marlin XT22 with a suppressor and it make less noise than an air rifle. Maybe i'll stick with the 7.62x39, I've been using 150 grain Sierra .311 Pro Hunters with 7 grains of Trail Boss, are cast bullets worth trying?

the 150grn hps off trademe that come out of Tokoroa are great stuff,I headshot my house muttons at up to 50 yards with them.

Originally Posted by Friwi

Unless your shooting gongs or targets,Holding energy in that upper range of weight is useless. A .30 cal 150 gr HP cast lead bullet at subsonic speeds travels through two goats standing next to each others( experienced it 3 different times at 30m, 90 m and 156 m!) so any more weight on your projectile is unproductive. ( inless you want to shoot through 4 or 5 goats standing next to each other's, good luck, you may as well play the lotto).
Because you are adding more powder you generate more noise. And in some cases, the rifling twist used for stabilising normal bullets at supersonic speeds is not fast enough to stabilise heavier bullets at subsonic speeds, so you can loose on accuracy.

Cast bullets are definitely cheaper than the jacketed bullets, but I have yet to see a cast projectile shooting as accurately as some jacketed projectiles do at subsonic speeds.

Thinner skinned animals and I am inclined to agree. It is like buying faster 22LR. In most cases subs (22) will go straight through a rabbit and a super just goes through faster. But with more stubborn animals I have found the bigger bullets more like hitting it with a bigger hammer.

When trying to remain subsonic, the only limit is speed. So to carry more energy further you need more weight. If you have sufficient energy then more weight is not needed. A 150gr traveling at the same speed as a 220gr will not carry the same energy. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and by pushing it all the way out to 250 yards (way more than I would ever use a sub 30cal) I found the trajectory difference is negligible, velocity difference is remarkably closer than I expected as well, but energy retained remains considerably higher on the heavier bullet as to be expected. As mentioned, on soft game like goats this is not really a problem, but on heavier set game like a sturdy bush stag or ornery boar, I think I would go for the heavier bullet. For penetration in these cases a copper jacketed "normal" projectile would work but so too would a harder compound lead. With lead you can control the amount of softness so it mushrooms / distorts quickly (soft) or holds its shape for penetration (hard).

All will work, and whatever you decide you want to use then the beauty of handloading is you can load exactly what you prefer. For subs I prefer a large 220gr at around 1000fps and from what I have seen it works "up close and personal" in scrub. You are also correct that accuracy is still key and if you are having success with 150s then a 150 that hits its target will be more effective than any 220 that misses.

Get a bolt action 300blk like my Ruger, cut it short as $#%& and screw a Sonic suppressor on the end. Then buy another sonic, take the baffles off it and screw them all together. Then buy another sonic, take the baffles off it and screw them all together. Mission accomplished

Used to use a Rossi 357mag shooting 38spl subsonic loads. Was good for pigs and deer but decided to go for the Ruger 96/44 lever action. Slightly more noise but a heavier bullet. In most cases with subsonic ammo the bullet hitting the target makes more noise than the shot being fired. About as loud as a air rifle.

i did want to add one more point with .30 caliber versus .45 that i found . .. when the big .45 300grn bullets compared to 200grn .30 cal bullets at 1600fps were used on Goats and some Big Fallow Deer the .45s were absolutely devastating, both put them down but the .45s were instant lights out and blew big exit holes on broadside hits that you could look into . . the clockwork had been blown out the side.

you don't have to be just use subsonic loads in your rifle . . . they will have different zero ranges but thats not a biggy. My .30s use a 50yd for the subs which gives me a 100yd with the high velocity load.

i preferred the .30s because i could get more accuracy for shooting out further with the rifles i tried without any problems . .. other rifles in the bigger calibers may have enough accuracy for your needs.

Years ago I wanted a 510 whisper or a 338 whisper for subsonic deer hunting, but got myself a 300 blackout built and am more than happy with what it can do. Even at 250m I can head shoot deer with subs. Easy enough to reload for, the nephew and grandkids can shoot it without flinching and shooting steel out to 300m.

I have done a lot of mucking around with 30cal subs. In everything from 300WM to 300AAC. If you want to go 30cal primarily for suppressing go 300AAC/blackout. The 1:8/7 barrel is perfect but you will be limited in full power loads. Otherwise a .308 will give you a sub sonic option with high power but look for 1:10 twist or faster barrels. Clean kills with sub-sonics is all about shot placement, the brain or spine is definitely preferable.