Thread: Redundant Calibres

with a fast twist .223 now shooting 70-80grn projectiles....it could be argued the mighty EBRG/twoforfree/.243w in redundant...unless you happen to own one and are still happily snotting over redskins left right n centre....
having a play with a 30/30 yesterday surely showed me what a decent barrel can do to an old cartridge..... as have said before the .22hp Savage if given a .224 calibre barrel would shine outstandingly well and give some of these modern numbers a run for the money.... much nicer in a break open too...

Re twists - what happens if a light grain projectile is fired through a fast twist barrel?

Originally Posted by TeRei

I own a 223WSSM. Never see them around. Fantastic killer. Great with 62gr Barnes.

Got plenty of brand new brass here for that

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

Re twists - what happens if a light grain projectile is fired through a fast twist barrel?

It should shoot well. I shoot 55 grain projectiles in my 8 twist .223 and they shoot well.
GPM.

Originally Posted by schwen

I have an acquaintance who goes on and on about the magnificence of the 204 Ruger (despite not having one). Is it any good or not? Can you buy ammo for it at H&F?

Disclaimer: Centrefire I use .308, 30-30 and .223. Rimfire 22LR, 22WMR and 17HMR

The 204 an awesome calibre for long range small game

Talking of accuracy and the quest for an accurate calibre/rifle, most modern firearms can shoot better than the person holding them.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Have a look at the list of cartridges (not calibres ffs!) in Quickload and mesmerise yourself at the sheer number of cartridges you’ve never even heard of.

So many odd little men in their sheds making mostly pointless wildcats out of perfectly good pre-existing cartridge cases. But, to be fair, wildcatting is a hobby like many other mostly pointless exercises and if that’s what floats your boat, then go for it. And of course it must be remembered that some of these wildcats have spawned globally dominant cartridges that are already decades old and probably won’t go out of production for decades more to come.

The way I look at today’s new cartridges, is not to focus on the cartridge alone but to look at the barrel twist and projectiles promoted along with it. There’s a lot of cynical commentary about marketing (aimed at Hornady mostly) but the fact is that their new products are very smartly designed and have absolutely raised the bar for some of the long-standing calibres. Efficient, accurate, competition proven and thoroughly successful in the field, easy to load, excellent factory ammunition (e.g. Precision Hunter). Compare the performance of Precision Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor to the traditional 6.5x55 factory ammo and you’ve got a great example of how lots of small incremental improvements add up to make a thoroughly superior product.

Contrast this to Sierra, who in their efforts to keep up with Hornady made an absolute dogs breakfast of the launch of the GameChanger bullets, screwing up the twist rate recommendations for the long-for-calibre bullets (e.g. 90 & 100gr 6mm), with a design that is fickle at best (putting in nicely) with the short bearing surface and very long ogive.

Who won the battle of coloured tips? Red or Green?

If you’re looking for a recent example of a cartridge that’s on a one way ride to redundancy, look at the 6.8 Western. There’s a reason Hornady has been so successful with new cartridges (and bullets, and getting rifle manufacturers to adopt the chamberings). Winchester & Browning probably should have considered why this is the case before they spent all that money designing, manufacturing and promoting a case that’s pretty much disappeared in 6 months. Go check out the availability of 6.8 Western related products… if you bought one of those in mid-2021 I’ll bet you’re wishing you got a .270 Winchester.

Thank you

Originally Posted by Maca49

The 204 an awesome calibre for long range small game

"pop"

Originally Posted by grandpamac

It should shoot well. I shoot 55 grain projectiles in my 8 twist .223 and they shoot well.
GPM.

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

some needed to go - I had a 30M1 carbine for awhile - used when mate and I went pighunting - damn useless caliber--as was the 32-20 - gutless both of them unless the pig was 6 feet away - once tried to shoot a stag at about 80 yards with 30 M1 - took 3 to get it despite all good shots -

That's an interesting comment. There's a heap of comments on US hunting forums about the old guys who did all their deer hunting with surplus M1 carbines. I've never fired one and have no experience with them, although it was always on the want list... too late now.

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

Cowardice,
Years ago it was thought that too fast a twist made projectiles shoot funny due to "being spun of their feet". Later it was found to be largely a myth. Second rate projectiles perhaps but not the good quality ones. Myths die hard in the US and manufacturers were scared that rifles would not sell. This in spite of knowing better and being told the same thing by most writers.
Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by schwen

I have an acquaintance who goes on and on about the magnificence of the 204 Ruger (despite not having one). Is it any good or not? Can you buy ammo for it at H&F?

Disclaimer: Centrefire I use .308, 30-30 and .223. Rimfire 22LR, 22WMR and 17HMR

I have a 204 centrefire rifle for shooting varments at longer ranges and it works great for that purpose for me. I shoot rabbits plovers cats magpies etc,it shoots very flat and a 32gr bullet is doing 4200 fps or thereabouts, and yes some sports shops sell the ammo, or if not ask them to stock it for you and they will. I reload for it as well, it has the 222magnum case behind a 20 caliber projectile great caliber for hard-to-get-at pests that stay out of range of rimfire love it

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

because back a few years ago..read fifty or more..the fast barrel burners like 22-250 and swift would blow up projectiles ..its a balancing act,always has been and always will be ..there are three parts to it... how fast bullet is being driven, how fast its being spun and how hard/stout/soft/fragile the make up of bullet/projectile itself

you can drive a solid copper just about as fast as you want and spin it as fast as you want and it will hold together...within reason
soft lead you drive too fast,or spin too fast and it will foul rifling really fast,stripping off leadinto grooves and fast enough it wont make it to target,will just turn into dust on the way...you can vapourise a varmit projectile in a 22-250 easy enough now...
slow down the twist and its more forgiving..... projectiles can still be driven fast and hold together..within reason.
if we all has fast twist barrels...the guys pushing projectile slowly would be fine..but stoke it along and it would have to be so darn hard it would struggle to expand at all once it slowed down a bit.
the expansion thing is ALSO two fold....there is straight out squashing effect..like car hitting brick wall and crumpling and then there is the spin..think of bucket of water swung around in arc..its pulling outwards,centrifugal force...rounded figures a pill going 3000 fps in a 1;12 twist is doing 180,000 rpm so its trying to pull itself apart...

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Cowardice,
Years ago it was thought that too fast a twist made projectiles shoot funny due to "being spun of their feet". Later it was found to be largely a myth. Second rate projectiles perhaps but not the good quality ones. Myths die hard in the US and manufacturers were scared that rifles would not sell. This in spite of knowing better and being told the same thing by most writers.
Grandpamac.

I beg to differ...

if a fella has two .223s (which many on here do) one with a say 1;8 twist and one with a 1;12 twist... the fast twist is spinning projectile half as fast again... if fed eggzachary the same load..the 1;8 will be more explody and the 1;12 will penetrate further...HOPEFULLY someone will have photographic evidence of this????