Thread: Redundant Calibres

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

That's an interesting comment. There's a heap of comments on US hunting forums about the old guys who did all their deer hunting with surplus M1 carbines. I've never fired one and have no experience with them, although it was always on the want list... too late now.

useless squaw guns yup fun to shoot mates and I had some fun with my old M1 but shoot deer unless within 50 yards

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

because back a few years ago..read fifty or more..the fast barrel burners like 22-250 and swift would blow up projectiles ..its a balancing act,always has been and always will be ..there are three parts to it... how fast bullet is being driven, how fast its being spun and how hard/stout/soft/fragile the make up of bullet/projectile itself

you can drive a solid copper just about as fast as you want and spin it as fast as you want and it will hold together...within reason
soft lead you drive too fast,or spin too fast and it will foul rifling really fast,stripping off leadinto grooves and fast enough it wont make it to target,will just turn into dust on the way...you can vapourise a varmit projectile in a 22-250 easy enough now...
slow down the twist and its more forgiving..... projectiles can still be driven fast and hold together..within reason.
if we all has fast twist barrels...the guys pushing projectile slowly would be fine..but stoke it along and it would have to be so darn hard it would struggle to expand at all once it slowed down a bit.
the expansion thing is ALSO two fold....there is straight out squashing effect..like car hitting brick wall and crumpling and then there is the spin..think of bucket of water swung around in arc..its pulling outwards,centrifugal force...rounded figures a pill going 3000 fps in a 1;12 twist is doing 180,000 rpm so its trying to pull itself apart...

Ta MD, just goes to show that you’re never too old to learn!

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

my best quess is that never ever will 6.5 crd replace .308

I had 2x308 rifles a Forbes 308 which is an Ultralite rifle just over 5 LBs 21" barrel till I put a Schmidt&Bender 2.5-10x56 scope on it and is a great lowlight bush gun as well as a Tikka 308 until I spotted a 6.5 Creedmore barrel on TradeMe that was new but had been taken off a Tikka and replaced with a carbon-fiber barrel at a good price so I swapped those 2 and now have a spear 18" 308 barrel for my Tikka.
the only reason I did this was quite a few of my shooting mates swapped to 6.5 and were giving me shit about 308, THERE IS nothing wrong with 308 it has the best range of projectiles on the market {I reload} or ammo that EVERY sports shop in NZ will have on their shelves, not like a lot of other calibers which can be a blessing if you run out. I run 178gr Amax projectiles&2208 powder in my Forbes and mainly use it for harder-to-get-around hunting places{bush} bugger all gets up and runs away with that recipe and if they do they don,t go very far at all The 6.5 is a very useful caliber the Swedes have been using it for over 100 years for a very good reason it kills things and is very slippery in windy conditions and shoots a bit flatter than the 308 but not much I think the 308 with the right projectile/powder combination will kill a lot further out then say a 6.5 creed which, in my opinion, is only ethical out to 500m same with the 260 I would say the 6.5prc type cartridge would kill further out but I do not know I am now stepping outside my realm so best I shut up, all I know is I now have a 308 and a 6.5 Creed so I can now sit on the broody fence and not be called a wanker for owning one or the other because I own both
P.S.: now you will provably call me a double wanker.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

When Dad got his first 222 in the 60’s (a Parker-Hale, a dog of a rifle!) he sighted it in with the target on a piece of Pinex, when we went to check the target there was a little pile of shedded jackets on the ground under it - the lead had gone through but not the jackets! Can’t remember the ammo brand.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

50grn hornady spsx were AWESOME on wallabies driven along at around the 3000fps mark.... wouldnt want to shoot big red stag in shoulder with them..but wouldnt want to try that with any varmit projectile....and that is the 4th thing to consider...match your load to the job you want it to do...

I wonder if the manufacturers will take bit of breather for awhile and try to get some return on some of these new cartridges they’re churning out ie: the PRC range!! Rifle manufacturers must tear their hair sometimes as they barely get tooled for one then get bombed with another. 7PRC over the 6.8Western as an example.

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

How hard can it be to tool up for a new cartridge?
It's just a different reamer. Nothing else is new. Various action lengths to suit are already produced . Various bolt head sizes already produced.
Only issue I can see is possibily taking away production time from existing chamberings.

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

How old are you two, you have to be kidding. The 7x57 was quite popular, and theres still a bunch of them floating around. It just got overwritten by the .308 in new rifles, and then the imports were mostly British rifles like the BSA, which the 7x57 was very common, changed to the US, who didnt chamber it in new rifles.
The 7x57 didn't gain traction...

CAC making 308 ammo helped the demise of the 7x57. Shame.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

None whatsoever. My son had a 358 Win for a while. A very flexible cartridge, much like the .308. You will enjoy it.
GPM.

Originally Posted by Nugget connaisseur

How hard can it be to tool up for a new cartridge?
It's just a different reamer. Nothing else is new. Various action lengths to suit are already produced . Various bolt head sizes already produced.
Only issue I can see is possibily taking away production time from existing chamberings.

When multinational companies are deciding to manufacture an item by the tens of thousands or more I think there are just a few more considerations than just the physical manufacturing process.

you can always load down the 358w...lots of folks do it.... plenty of lighter projectiles around that will work fine at less than warp speed too.

i still use a 358 norma occasionally, i have a lot of cases and projectiles for this but my main rifle now is a suppressed 308 begara take down

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

35 Whelen next ?