Thread: Sako 75 halfcock

the 60 degree bolt makes it sit in a nice spot where you can cradle it with the web of your thumb and forefinger and drop the bolt with your thumb when shouldering

it makes for a real quick snap shot when close in bush hunting without thing you are shooting at 3m away hearing the "click"

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

The fact that European rifles including UK, have a heavy half open bolt position compared to American suggests to me that the Euro manufacturers intended for their firearms to be used that way - and that is what their customers wanted. A lot of US hunting has been done from stands where having one up the spout and safety applied is fine. Most of the Euro firearms that have come to NZ come from countries that don't hunt from stands. In NZ the Mountain Safety Council taught me ' Use a half open bolt or action only when in a state of semi-readiness'. To me a half open bolt with thumb and fore-finger holding the bolt in a positive grip is the safe position before moving to bolt closed and safety on (or not).
One position is probably no safer than the other from a mechanical point, but with the half open bolt I have positive contact with the bolt at all times and know the gun cant fire whereas with the safety on I have to look at it or move my thumb to physically check it is on. Learning to load and unload silently and carrying a rifle with an empty chamber is the safest of the lot with a Bolt action IMO.

Ask Euro gun makers that question and you'll find the answer isn't what you were thinking.

I lived in England and Scotland and hunted for there for 30 years and for 3 in the US. I never heard of half cock ever and never once thought I needed anything but the aptly named safety catch on my many rifles. When hunting alone I have always had a round in the chamber and safety catch on, which is common practice in UK. There are some bizarre “safety” practices here in NZ, but each to his own.

Oh, and does anyone think in these days of litigation that rifle manufacturers would fit unsafe safety catches to their rifles?

Everyone is getting hung up on the safety vs half bolt argument... Thats not what the post is about. If you can have both at the same time and double the level of security isn't that a good thing? Thats what the post is asking.. of which the answer has already been mentioned in that I am pretty sure the safety can be applied on a Sako 75 with the bolt in the half open position. You achieve the same thing as the tikka mod, only difference being the Sako 75 can have the bolt closed when the safety is applied where as the tikka is locked due to the hole drilled in the bolt to enable the safety to engage. (I may be slightly wrong here but that's how I remember it when I had my Sako 75).

Originally Posted by stagstalker

Everyone is getting hung up on the safety vs half bolt argument... Thats not what the post is about. If you can have both at the same time and double the level of security isn't that a good thing? Thats what the post is asking.. of which the answer has already been mentioned in that I am pretty sure the safety can be applied on a Sako 75 with the bolt in the half open position. You achieve the same thing as the tikka mod, only difference being the Sako 75 can have the bolt closed when the safety is applied where as the tikka is locked due to the hole drilled in the bolt to enable the safety to engage. (I may be slightly wrong here but that's how I remember it when I had my Sako 75).

I agree, the thread is about modifying a Sako 75 to use the safety and half open bolt together.
The OP is wanting to be as safe as possible - and also prevent the loss of the bolt. Regardless, debate has been opened around the use of the 'Half open Bolt'
What does the firearms code say about this in the 7 basic rules ? Rule 3 states: Load a firearm only when ready to fire. What this is means that anyone who loads their firearm and applies the safety and hunts like that is breaking rule 3. When I served in TF I remember asking one of the officers why we were being taught to carry our rifles with 'one up the spout and the safety on' He replied that in a civilian situation I was right and carrying rifle that way is not safe. He said further that the army accepted that this practice would result in some friendly fire deaths and injuries but that in a combat situation more soldiers would be lost when the enemy was encountered if they were not ready.
Before the seven basic rules were changed, the old 'rule 3' read as follows:'Use Half-open Bolt or Action when in a state of semi readiness' (only the leader of a party is to assume this position). This is what the Police taught and examined applicants on.
Technically, the rifle is not 'loaded' if the bolt is half open and it would then comply with rule three as it is written now
I expect a licence applicant would fail their test tomorrow if they said that rule 3 means hunt with the firearm loaded and safety on

Fair points, but it seems to me that there are a number of what would be called unusual safety practices going on as a result of issues with rifles from the first half of the last century.

As an aside, when in the British Army it never crossed my mind that training and patrolling with rounds in the chamber was dangerous. There are both safety and dangerous catches on every rifle. Furthermore, the danger from enemy action was very real for many years in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. Not having a round in the chamber would be more dangerous than than the alternative.

Just my opinion.
Have a nice weekend.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Fair points, but it seems to me that there are a number of what would be called unusual safety practices going on as a result of issues with rifles from the first half of the last century.

As an aside, when in the British Army it never crossed my mind that training and patrolling with rounds in the chamber was dangerous. There are both safety and dangerous catches on every rifle. Furthermore, the danger from enemy action was very real for many years in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. Not having a round in the chamber would be more dangerous than than the alternative.

Just my opinion.
Have a nice weekend.

So, Spitfire would it be your opinion as it is mine that carrying the firearm loaded with 'safety' applied originates with the military ? My opinion is that hunters should learn and practice how to load and unload their firearms quietly and carry them unloaded.

Moa H - when do you put rounds in the magazine of your rifle (if a detachable mag when you you put the charged mag in the rifle) ??

Have you ever hunted with a semi-auto .22 (or CF for that matter)??

I load the mag when I reach the hunting area and leave the camp or vehicle 'Safety perimeter' to start hunting. If someone has a detachable mag there is going to be nothing unsafe about charging it at home and transporting it like that. If it is not in the rifle it is safe. I was taught that when using a bolt action to carry it with the mag loaded and the chamber empty. Then when expecting to take a shot chamber a round silently ( by using the fingers of the left hand wrapped around the action and gently riding the round being chambered) and move to the 'half open' bolt position. If the shot is not taken, silently return the round to the mag. I do sometimes hunt with a single shot hammer gun which is very straight forward and safe, although it would not comply with 'Rule 3'

Yes Tentman I have hunted with a semi auto - a BAR 7mm Mag and a BAR 300 Win Mag and I have used an AUG in NZTF. Personally I don't like hunting with semis as they are noisy to load or alternately must be carried with one up the spout and the safety applied, so they are inherently less safe in practice because they cannot be easily loaded and unloaded; A firearm with a round in the chamber must be less safe than a firearm with an empty chamber.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

So, Spitfire would it be your opinion as it is mine that carrying the firearm loaded with 'safety' applied originates with the military ? My opinion is that hunters should learn and practice how to load and unload their firearms quietly and carry them unloaded.

That could be the case but I don’t know.

Here in NZ I generally hunt with rounds in the mag but an empty chamber, chambering a round when I am in a watching position or close to an animal. In Europe and the US I would have a round chambered and safety on as it is generally easy country or static blinds and high seats. Difficult ground and lots of scrub make it too easy to knock a safety catch off. If I’m hunting with someone I never move around with a chambered round.

Modern safetys are more reliable than the older ones. Just like modern rifles are generally more accurate.
Mechanical safeties work in addition to the one between your ears and the one on your hand (trigger finger) and good muzzle control / awarenes.
Empty chamber as far as i am concerned allows you to develop sloppy safety habits.
If you are hunting in pairs one in front loaded safety on and one following unloaded. Happy days.

Originally Posted by mikee

Modern safetys are more reliable than the older ones. Just like modern rifles are generally more accurate.
Mechanical safeties work in addition to the one between your ears and the one on your hand (trigger finger) and good muzzle control / awarenes.
Empty chamber as far as i am concerned allows you to develop sloppy safety habits.
If you are hunting in pairs one in front loaded safety on and one following unloaded. Happy days.

The problem (apart from safety concerns) with a hunter proceeding 'loaded safety on' is that unless about to fire the hunter is breaking rule 3 of the firearms code. Modern cars are safer than old cars but that doesn't mean we are allowed to disregard the road code. There was a recall on Remington 700's over some safety issue 3 or 4 years ago from memory so who knows if other modern rifles will develop problems over time with wear and tear.

The Remington recall is still current
https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...cVdAaFPi8VXkjd

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

The problem (apart from safety concerns) with a hunter proceeding 'loaded safety on' is that unless about to fire the hunter is breaking rule 3 of the firearms code. Modern cars are safer than old cars but that doesn't mean we are allowed to disregard the road code. There was a recall on Remington 700's over some safety issue 3 or 4 years ago from memory so who knows if other modern rifles will develop problems over time with wear and tear.

I would argue the hunter in front with the loaded rifle when actively hunting would expect to be ready to shoot as they would be hunting. 1/2 bolt means the gun is still loaded.