Thread: scope decision

I haven't used either, just looked through mounted, Nightforce was 5,5x22x50, PM11 was 3x12x50.
I didn't compare them side by side as it was different times, however regardless of the difference in magnification. to my eyes, and I'm 50yrs the PM11 was sharper.
Very unscientific but it's gonna be what I'll be basing a 3k plus purchase on, unless I can get a look though one of the Premier Reticle scopes in the next month or so.

I have 2 Premiers, a light tactical 3-15*50 & a heritage 5-25*56. Glass is superb in both, very noticably better than Nightforce or Leupold Mk4 (I have had both of these scopes). A good as Swarovski Z6 glass. The Heritage is big! Awesome positive turrets, heaps of adjustment (one turn gets me to 1,800m on my 338) in 2 turns, with zero stop and 2nd turn indicator. I haven't compared them side by side with S&B, although I have looked through several S&B's and don't recall them being any better than the Premier.

I got both mine from Euro Optic, great service. There isn't a NZ distributor as far as I know...

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I have March, S&B and Nightforce scopes. In terms of glass clarity the S&B and March leave the Nightforce for dead. If anyone's trying to tell you they are close or comparable then they don't know their arse from their elbow.

Mechanically the Nightforce is brilliant and I have never seen one with an incorrect click value. You dial 10 MOA or Mil up and that's where the bullet hits, assuming you can shoot of course. The S&B is every bit as good mechanically and I much prefer the feel of the clicks. Personally I find the NF clicks a bit mushy.

As I said earlier March tactical optics are amazing,especially considering they only have a 44mm obj lens. The tubes are no where near as tough as either the S&B or NF. However they are WAY lighter!! Turrets are magic, clicks are almost as good as the S&B but not quite. Certainly better than the NF. Jury is still out on their click values however.

Given the parameters you've given I would go a S&B PMII in 5-25 or a Hendsolt.

thanks proudkiwi
sound like a good stable of scopes you have
5-25 you would go the 12-50??

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

I have March, S&B and Nightforce scopes. In terms of glass clarity the S&B and March leave the Nightforce for dead. If anyone's trying to tell you they are close or comparable then they don't know their arse from their elbow.

Mechanically the Nightforce is brilliant and I have never seen one with an incorrect click value. You dial 10 MOA or Mil up and that's where the bullet hits, assuming you can shoot of course. The S&B is every bit as good mechanically and I much prefer the feel of the clicks. Personally I find the NF clicks a bit mushy.

As I said earlier March tactical optics are amazing,especially considering they only have a 44mm obj lens. The tubes are no where near as tough as either the S&B or NF. However they are WAY lighter!! Turrets are magic, clicks are almost as good as the S&B but not quite. Certainly better than the NF. Jury is still out on their click values however.

Given the parameters you've given I would go a S&B PMII in 5-25 or a Hendsolt.

Could you give us a run down on the click value errors in the march? Ie how you identified them ,how bad they they are and most imortantly what Stuart Elliot said re fixing the problem?

Originally Posted by longrange308

thanks proudkiwi
sound like a good stable of scopes you have
5-25 you would go the 12-50??

You could look at the 12-50 but to be honest the conditions would have to be perfect in order to utilize any magnification over 25. Mirage usually makes it impossible to see anything useful at the highest mag settings.

And while it's unlikely you will find yourself in this situation, the 5-25 will focus down to 10 yards on 5 power which I think would be useful and more likely to be used. Not sure what the 12-50 will focus down too.

However, the 12-50 is usually considerably cheaper than the 5-25 and I see them frequently on the sale page of the Euro Optics website.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Could you give us a run down on the click value errors in the march? Ie how you identified them ,how bad they they are and most imortantly what Stuart Elliot said re fixing the problem?

I have only tested one of the March scopes but found that for the first 10moa of up the clicks were correct but from 10-20 they increased slightly in value per click.

For the test the rifle was clamped down on a concrete bench on a calibrated 100 yard range aimed at a test pattern with graduation marks. Elevation was then dialed in while watching the reticle against the test pattern.

I didn't contact Stuart about it because it wasn't a big issue for me once I established the actual click values.

I should also mention that the scope is 100% consistent and repeatable so that while the clicks might not be exactly .25 MOA per click they never changed from what they actually were.

Also check the amount of adjustment avaliable in the 12-50 (I don't know the figures). You will end up with RSI in your wrist dialling a 12-50 on a 308... probably a million clicks to get to 1,000...

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Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

I have only tested one of the March scopes but found that for the first 10moa of up the clicks were correct but from 10-20 they increased slightly in value per click.

For the test the rifle was clamped down on a concrete bench on a calibrated 100 yard range aimed at a test pattern with graduation marks. Elevation was then dialed in while watching the reticle against the test pattern.

I didn't contact Stuart about it because it wasn't a big issue for me once I established the actual click values.

I should also mention that the scope is 100% consistent and repeatable so that while the clicks might not be exactly .25 MOA per click they never changed from what they actually were.

Cheers, so how much was the increase? Its not a cheap scope, I'd be talking to Stuart to at least get his thoughts on it.I think he'd like hear about any possible issues direct and have a chance to fix any problems.

I didn't think people disregarded Nightforce scopes so much - Sounds like I'm wrong. I myself use a Nightforce 5.5-22x50 NPR1 scope after upgrading from a Leupold MK4. Yes the glass isn't as good as an S & B or March but I find their eye relief & placement critical in comparison. I think of the Nightforce as a Mac truck - Solid, dependable & will get the job done. Even if I had the extra money to spend I'd be buying another Nightforce simply for this reason.

LJP, in my case it's not a matter of not holding the nightforce scopes in high regard it's more pragmatic than that.
For me to drop between 3-4K on a scope will be a one time only thing, there will not be another scope like it in my cabinet, I'm not going to buy a brand at that price I haven't looked through and the two I have were the N/F and the PM11, so the choice for me will be one or the other. In my case I preferred the PM11 glass therefore my choice was made.

In the long run it will be better if I never get to see a March or Premier Reticle scope, at least until after I've made my purchase.

Who cares about glass clarity? At that level it's all splitting academic hairs.

I prefer my SuB over NF (I have a NF as well) because it has the features I want for similar/less weight and same/better build quality and reliability.


I'm sure I read somewhere that Premier use the same glass as SuB and were actually made by SuB.

Im pretty sure the OP specified that glass clarity was the main consideration when asking for people's opinion. However, I completely agree that once you get to S&B, premier etc level then glass clarity is more subjective than objective.

LJP - I don't think NF scopes are rubbish by any stretch of the imagination. Mechanically they are every bit as good as a S&B. They are also very forgiving and easy to get behind like you say. However, despite what you might read, especially on US forums, the glass is not in the same league as the S&B, Zeiss etc. Its good but not great.

The other thing I will say is that the NF and S&B are BIG and HEAVY scopes. They can create a horrible balance on light weight hunting rigs. That's why I got the March in the first place.

Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Im pretty sure the OP specified that glass clarity was the main consideration when asking for people's opinion.

My (badly stated) point is that once you're past "looking through the bottom of a coke bottle" glass, glass quality makes no practical difference to function, so it shouldn't be a main consideration. Sure it's nice to talk about, but who ever missed anything because their glass wasn't clear enough? I never have. I'd put features, reliability, build quality and toughness above glass clarity in terms of importance. Especially since when you buy a scope that has those features, glass clarity will be more than sufficient.

Originally Posted by gimp

My (badly stated) point is that once you're past "looking through the bottom of a coke bottle" glass, glass quality makes no practical difference to function, so it shouldn't be a main consideration. Sure it's nice to talk about, but who ever missed anything because their glass wasn't clear enough? I never have. I'd put features, reliability, build quality and toughness above glass clarity in terms of importance. Especially since when you buy a scope that has those features, glass clarity will be more than sufficient.

You can make the same argument in reverse for "features,build quality and toughness "once you get past a particular price point as well.This is a sport,its for enjoyment,I enjoy it more when I can look through very nice glass.