Thread: Sub MOA rifles

A lotta people out there can’t shoot sub Moa groups despite the gun being capable ..

It is odd though that some cheaper rifles shoot really well and some more expensive rifles don’t shoot as well. My blued howa in .233 can shoot sub moa all day long, but my custom ultralight 7mm08 built off the same howa action shoots just over moa

Originally Posted by CamFlatt

It is odd though that some cheaper rifles shoot really well and some more expensive rifles don’t shoot as well. My blued howa in .233 can shoot sub moa all day long, but my custom ultralight 7mm08 built off the same howa action shoots just over moa

Ultralites are renowned for not shooting well / being very hard to shoot well / very hard to tune loads

You also get the people that buy a $200 rifle and expect it to shoot a 10mm group with any random cheap shitty ammo, then complain about its accuracy and demand a refund cause it wont shoot.

Custom rifles will always shoot better, one of the SSRNZ rifles I had shot 10 shot single hole group at 100m. But you pay for quality and accuracy

Grayham Henry wrote a really really good article on this some 30ish years ago....breaking down the costs of manufacture...investment casting etc dropped price no end....like making a cresent spanner,then giving it a clean up Vs starting with block of metal and machining it down.....the upshot of article was just how little profit there was in a budget rifle and barrels are mass produced just like the other components....
back 30-40 years ago rifles WERENT bedded as a rule,heck my model 70 lightweight had a blob of hot glue type compound in stock and action slapped in and screwed up FROM FACTORY.
we have come a long way since then,but a budget rifle still costs a lot to produce...short cuts have to be taken somewhere.

its often been said the reason the trebly took off so fast as a professionals rifle was 3 fold....#1 they were small and light #2 you could carry lots of ammo #3 they were as a rule tack drivers where as most off the shelf bigger calibres were 2-4moa

The production cost of a ruger barrel is around the US$50 mark.( read in an American magazine a few years back).

They shoot pretty well for the price.

All my rifles will shoot sub moa, day in, day out! But I'm buggered if I can shoot sub moa all the time, hell I'm super happy with 3 shots in 1.5moa. But given an animal within the 300-350 range, crosshairs on the crease, bloody gun goes off all on its own, and bang flop, gotta go do some butchery.

in my opion 90% of new guns should be sub moa these days if you play your part, the most accurate rifle I own I only paid $700 for, and with a brand like howa offering sub moa gaurantee for a price like $900 every other maufactuer should really be doing the same

Originally Posted by Howa1500

in my opion 90% of new guns should be sub moa these days if you play your part, the most accurate rifle I own I only paid $700 for, and with a brand like howa offering sub moa gaurantee for a price like $900 every other maufactuer should really be doing the same

Yep, with modern manufacturing no reason a firearm shouldn't shoot moa. All companies make the odd lemon that won't shoot for whatever dark arts reason, the guarantee usually just gives you some insurance/recompense should you get one of said lemons

Originally Posted by CamFlatt

With a few makes coming out and giving the guarantee of a sub moa guarantee, it left me wondering what reasons any newer rifle wouldn’t be sub moa?

I'll put it to you in very simple terms.

The PRIMARY reason why any newer rifle wouldn't be sub MOA is.....

...the shooter

Most modern rifles have an accuracy guarantee of some sort my kidd has a guarantee of 1/2 inch at 50yards Lives up to that with my eyes closed that’s probably the worst group ive ever shot with it
Most centerfire say 1 moa at 100 yards these days my howas do and generally easily to that and more

I have only ever returned one rifle for inaccuracy
Accross Multiple factory ammos and handloads Best I could do was 1.2moa across Multiple groups of each ammo
They sent it to the gunsmith who testified it with probably the one ammo I didn’t try and it shot moa (just) across the 1 3 shot group he shot
So couldn’t do anything as it met the guarantee

Ive since got it shooting ok

But I didn’t think 1 3 shot quite possibly fluked group was a fair example of a rifle living upto a Guarantee

I have a new to me WBY Mark 5 ultralightweight in 30.06. Its been somebodies safe queen as it appears to have done no work. It shoots winchester 150 factories into 2.5moa current new price is $4100 AUD. the rifle I replaced it with a Howa 1500 fluted 300.06 would put the same ammo sub moa all the time. Luckily I picked it up for less than new Tikka money. the load development will bring it right along with some more trigger tickling, creepy trigger despite sear engagement adjustments. Not the first ULW I've owned it will just take time to come right.

Sub MOA capability is handy for shooting rabbits at 300+metres, but for normal game shooting (goats, deer, pigs, etc) then 2.5 MOA is fine. Sub MOA is difficult to consistently achieve off a bench for a good shooter, and pretty much impossible under field conditions. It does make for good advertising copy though, a bit like buying a car that is capable of speeds in excess of 200 KPH yet probably has never exceeded 120 in its life because of the left seat handbrake!

Originally Posted by CamFlatt

It is odd though that some cheaper rifles shoot really well and some more expensive rifles don’t shoot as well. My blued howa in .233 can shoot sub moa all day long, but my custom ultralight 7mm08 built off the same howa action shoots just over moa

its amazing how often I see something like this written........and are guilty of it myself for same reason....a .223 is easyto shoot well and lets a fella get away with stuff a bigger cartridge wont...your 7mm08 isnt huge booting cartridge but in ultralight setup will move around a hell of alot more than the 223 so unless you do your bit 100% correctly it will be harder to get good grouping.... when I do my bit my bigger rifles will hover around the inch mark...Im happy with 1.5 inch group where its wanted if checking zero...for 0-350 yards the deer wont care less.... now my .223 will normally hover closerto half inch because I can shoot it better,my technique doesnt have to be as good...EG the other week a certain young fella stood up in tall tussocks,his Father stood his rifle buttdown intussocks and cupped my forestock in hand holding end of his barrel sort of a mono pod 4 feet high...young fella held my .223 but was having trouble getting eye relief right with my longish stock so I put butt ABOVE his shoulder and cupped it in my hand...young man lined up wallaby at about 100-120 yards and shot it in neck.....NO WAY in hell would you try that with any bigger cartridge.... not only would chances of missing be increased and weatherby eyebrow be certain...it just would be far too risky...
light recoiling rifles are easier to shoot well.

Knowing a rifle can shoot sub MOA at 200m+ in optimal conditions is a great confidence builder when perfecting one's skills under adverse conditions and using hunting, not match, ammo.

My Howa 1500 308W has a love affair with Sako TRG but I can't afford it.