Thread: Subsonic projectiles, where are we at these days?

Hopefully subsonic products will develope more. Regards the 220 grain nosler .308 sub, there was a multipage thread on enoughgun.com and the bullet did not get great reviews. In fact one of the fellas who culls a lot of pigs was disgruntled enough he ordered a 450 bushmaster to replace his 300BLK. I have been trying to find field reviews of the hornady 190grain to see how it goes.

Originally Posted by SixtyTen

A sneak peak at something im working on at the moment, there will be a full write up on this and the rifle it goes with in the future...

Its a 400gr 9mm projectile, sitting in a 308 case cut at the bottom of shoulder and necked to 9mm, similar idea to the russian 9x39 but with projectiles designed for killing the 4 legged variety rather than 2 legged.
Estimated BC on this projectile is somewhere around .500 G1, so should have plenty of energy for medium game out to 400m or so (but it will drop like a rock)
Pure Lead projectiles will be powdercoated to avoid leading barrel.
Casting them didnt work very well so im making a swaging die and press to try swaging them from extruded lead wire.

Attachment 126405

Attachment 126406

.223, 9mm Subsonic, 6,5CM

Those things look more like spears! I use the. 308 151gr lead casts that someone in the forum sells. 7.5gr trailboss powder. I've shot them out to 150y or so but tend to use them up to 50 due to the massive drop. Good on goats and great on hares.

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Any word yet on the Hornady 190gr 308 (30cal) Sub-X projectile, is it here in NZ? or still coming over.

Originally Posted by 264 Luvr

Any word yet on the Hornady 190gr 308 (30cal) Sub-X projectile, is it here in NZ? or still coming over.

Looks like it has only just been released in the US but retailers still waiting for supplies, it could be quite a while before we see any, the 243 90gr eld-x took ages to arrive in NZ.

In the British Rifleshooter magazine for dec 2019 there’s a test of 300 BLK factory ammo in super and subsonic. They concluded that the supersonicusing a 125gr varmint bullets was acceptable but not ideal for foxes but the subsonic200gr was no good for deer sized animals. The big problem was that the long bullet filled up half the case capacity so you could only fit a small amount of powder in and muzzle energy was like 500 ft.lb . So a 223 sized case is too small for subsonic shooting ( for small deer anyway).

As well as bullet design, the problem is getting enough energy into a subsonic bullet. If you start at a low velocity like the 7.62x39 or 303 going 2400 FPS, subtract a bit and halve it to below the Speed of sound then to make up for that you need the bullet to be 4x as heavy ...

If you had more case volume so you could give the bullet more energy then you wouldn't be subsonic any more. Kind of a silly statement really the idea of a 300 Blk-out is a small volume case so you don't have a lot of empty space is the case for a subsonic load.
The only real way to get more energy for a subsonic load is to go up in bullet weight and caliber.

That's right. It's hard to get enough kinetic energy with any real subsonic round.
Looking at the biggest, shortest rifle round I know of, the 50 Beowulf: a standard load is 400gr at 1800f fps and 2800 ft.lb. Downloading to 1000 fps might give about 900 ft.lb which could be enough. Even if the bullet didn't expand much, .50" might dissapate energy quickly enough and so some damage.

It seems to be a real engineering challenge to make a bullet that will expand at 1000 fps.

I guess we're into pistol cartridges and pistol bullets ? Don't know anything about them, myself.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

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Who in NZ sells these.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

That's right. It's hard to get enough kinetic energy with any real subsonic round.
Looking at the biggest, shortest rifle round I know of, the 50 Beowulf: a standard load is 400gr at 1800f fps and 2800 ft.lb. Downloading to 1000 fps might give about 900 ft.lb which could be enough. Even if the bullet didn't expand much, .50" might dissapate energy quickly enough and so some damage.

It seems to be a real engineering challenge to make a bullet that will expand at 1000 fps.

I guess we're into pistol cartridges and pistol bullets ? Don't know anything about them, myself.

Without looking up the tables, I don't think that a 400 grn pill at 1025 fps will have even 900 ft.lb energy. With 50 cal it is possible to go a lot heavier anyway.
As far as expansion, the Winchester 22 subs expand very well so scaling up should surely work ?.

Now a factor that no one has mentioned so far is MOMENTUM or inertia. There are online calculators for this. So far the talk is all about ft.lb of energy. In engine speak Momentum is torque and ft.lbs is horsepower. Those heavy slow revving subs are down on horsepower but high on torque - which means they have the ability to penetrate and cut a big hole but they don't produce an impact shockwave. Hit bones and the sub bullets smash them to pieces, hit muscle like high neck and the animal hardly notices. Aim in line with the front leg or for the Hilair

Originally Posted by Bagheera

That's right. It's hard to get enough kinetic energy with any real subsonic round.
Looking at the biggest, shortest rifle round I know of, the 50 Beowulf: a standard load is 400gr at 1800f fps and 2800 ft.lb. Downloading to 1000 fps might give about 900 ft.lb which could be enough. Even if the bullet didn't expand much, .50" might dissapate energy quickly enough and so some damage.

It seems to be a real engineering challenge to make a bullet that will expand at 1000 fps.

I guess we're into pistol cartridges and pistol bullets ? Don't know anything about them, myself.

I'm having a play with a similar idea at the moment - 500 Smith and Wesson shooting 500gr cast lead projectiles

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

still got large void with trail boss???? being same case as .308 I wouldve thought somewhere around the same 8.5grns would be order of day and pretty much more than 60% full.

I have a .359" mould now casts 220 gr HP or 240 gr FP have them listed on TM.

I've been in contact with Balckwatch they said the Honday 190gr Sub-X are on the way with the next shipment $78 per 100

I've used suppressed .22 rimfire subsonics for the odd pig and goat when hunting in areas where shots might upset people, but I am always mindful of hitting the right spot. A clear brain shot works well, but I've found that lung/heart shot is a better choice if I'm not certain of hitting the brain. However I don't take long shots.

Knowing that the .22 isn't ideal for larger animals, I got a .357 magnum and cast my own flat-nosed bullets for it. Using both Trail Boss and AP70N powders (not in the same cartridge!) I've made up some loads that shoot at around 1000 feet per second. I've only shot a few things with these loads, but so far I'm pretty happy with them. I still don't have the small group sizes like I can get with my .22 or .223, but the typical two inch group at fifty yards (or sometimes better) is fine for sensible hunting ranges (say up to 75 yards).

The first .357 I got was a stainless Rossi Puma with a 16 inch barrel. Lovely little rifle. I cut the buckhorns off the rear sight and I find I shoot much better with the flat top. I will probably never fit a suppressor on the Puma. When I was having accuracy problems as I was experimenting with loads, I got a Bergara BA13 .357 magnum with a short barrel. The Bergara has a faster rifling twist than the Rossi, and it groups pretty well with the 158 grain cast bullets.... wheras the Rossi has been shooting best with 125 grain projectiles. I think the Rossi might shoot heavier projectiles more accurately if I loaded for maximum speed, but I prefer a quieter option.

Now I would like to fit a suppressor to the Bergara. It has a 5/8" x 24 tpi thread. If anybody has any suggestions as to where I might get a good deal on a sturdy suppressor for this rifle I'd be interested to hear them.

I really don't need any more gear or guns given that I don't need much meat, and with the rifles I have (including a suppressed .223) I am well-equipped. But subsonic hunting is something I'm interested in so I may as well pursue it.

If I eventually find that I'm not satisfied with what the .357 can do, I'm tempted to get a Bergara 45-70 for my subsonic project. I haven't had a lot of experience with suppressors, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't buy a .45 calibre suppressor to fit to the Bergara .357 so that it could be used on the bigger rifle. I wonder if the oversized suppressor holes would make the .357 shot significantly louder, or whether it would still work well enough with subsonic loads. Has anyone had any experience with this kind of thing?

Best wishes from Nelson...

it would be better if you stuck to the size of the bullet you aee shooting, if not it will be louder yes
its a big jump 35 to 41 cal
dpt can sell additional baffle stacks if you get a 44 later on if you went with one of these