The Zero Check Thread

[Beavis]

Dunno how the 3rd target ended up in the post - it's a different load. Nothing to do with my original post. Can't figure out how to delete it.

[nor-west]

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

[Beavis]

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

Pretty much because extensive testing has shown that you need to fire a minimum of 10 rounds, ideally 20 or better yet 30 to get a good sample size that represents the true dispersion pattern of a rifle/bullet/powder combination. Shooting larger sample sizes and ruling in "flyers" gives you much better data to zero your rifle.

Most people can get by with an imperfect zero etc because of the size of the target and the distances they are shooting things at.

[Tentman]

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

Actually I do recall you firing 10 shots once, then you ran out of ammo, but that was a "we will never speak of this day again" scenario so I won't. Haha

[Steelisreal]

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

You don't need to do anything that falls outside of your own requirements. If you're happy with your method of defining precision and zeroing your rifle then good for you - go shoot stuff and be happy.

Here's the big but - when claims are made that a rifle shoots 'sub-MOA all day' or suchlike, that's when statistical validity becomes the primary consideration.

These discussions posted by Gimp et al have always been to try to get us thinking about what we're claiming (and expecting) of our equipment and abilities and BE HONEST with ourselves about our expectations of both.

Beavis makes a great point that errors in your system are much less problematic if you follow the traditional hunter's advice to 'stalk in close, then get a bit closer' before shooting. This was very much the approach when I was younger and was taught to shoot. And it served us well for trying to achieve humane kills with the equipment we had.

Times change though and these days it's very easy to wander in to a shop and buy yourself the ultimate long range precision rifle setup and set off into the world to emulate what has been seen or read about online. And that's where it can all come unstuck without understanding what precision actually is and how to use that to zero your rifle/scope system to make best use of that potential.

[gimp]

You don't need to do anything that falls outside of your own requirements. If you're happy with your method of defining precision and zeroing your rifle then good for you - go shoot stuff and be happy.

Here's the big but - when claims are made that a rifle shoots 'sub-MOA all day' or suchlike, that's when statistical validity becomes the primary consideration.

These discussions posted by Gimp et al have always been to try to get us thinking about what we're claiming (and expecting) of our equipment and abilities and BE HONEST with ourselves about our expectations of both.

Beavis makes a great point that errors in your system are much less problematic if you follow the traditional hunter's advice to 'stalk in close, then get a bit closer' before shooting. This was very much the approach when I was younger and was taught to shoot. And it served us well for trying to achieve humane kills with the equipment we had.

Times change though and these days it's very easy to wander in to a shop and buy yourself the ultimate long range precision rifle setup and set off into the world to emulate what has been seen or read about online. And that's where it can all come unstuck without understanding what precision actually is and how to use that to zero your rifle/scope system to make best use of that potential.

This is a very good summary.

[STC]

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

because some people need to boost their egos...

[Tentman]

Yup and it gets you other ways too. Someone was posting about the temperature effects on ammo, how they got a 400mm drop at 300M. Poor zero right there.

[woods223]

I check zero every so often. Like when I have an unexplained miss on an animal I'll either do a proper target test or shoot something like a pine cone etc after checking range with rangefinder. Invariably it's operator error. Anyway, as I use my rifles on a weekly basis I'm pretty confident they're pretty good at maintaining zero and I'm happy with overall accuracy. Don't have any fancy Ballistic x photos or anything but a few photos from a range shoot in Westport a couple of weeks ago. Two rifles, a 223 and a 6.5CM. Both hunting rifles shooting F-class FPR. The odd sighter out of groups is due to calibration not being quite right on individual targets so had to adjust but same for everyone who competed. Bad shots are just operator error/not reading wind right. Anyhow, I don't get too serious with stuff but I'm reasonably happy with my setups. They get me animals ok. Hope pictures/captions load ok.

223, 55gr v-max
223, 73gr ELDM
6.5CM 147gr ELDM 600yd target shot @ 700yds.
6.5CM 147 ELDM
6.5CM 147 ELDM

[Trout]

I check zero every so often. Like when I have an unexplained miss on an animal I'll either do a proper target test or shoot something like a pine cone etc after checking range with rangefinder. Invariably it's operator error. Anyway, as I use my rifles on a weekly basis I'm pretty confident they're pretty good at maintaining zero and I'm happy with overall accuracy. Don't have any fancy Ballistic x photos or anything but a few photos from a range shoot in Westport a couple of weeks ago. Two rifles, a 223 and a 6.5CM. Both hunting rifles shooting F-class FPR. The odd sighter out of groups is due to calibration not being quite right on individual targets so had to adjust but same for everyone who competed. Bad shots are just operator error/not reading wind right. Anyhow, I don't get too serious with stuff but I'm reasonably happy with my setups. They get me animals ok. Hope pictures/captions load ok.

223, 55gr v-max Attachment 271657
223, 73gr ELDM Attachment 271661
6.5CM 147gr ELDM 600yd target shot @ 700yds. Attachment 271662
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271658
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271663

Your groups will kill deer,thats all that matters.

[STC]

In case of shifting poi check your suppressor if you have one. carbon build up will add mass... which will alter harmonics...

same as a tuner essentially