Thread: Winchester’s .458 … Contender or Pretender?

By BadboyMelvin.



If ever there was a cartridge that has caused a more heated debate than any other it would have to be the .458 Winchester magnum. For the last 59 years it has been sworn by – and sworn at by PH’s, hunters and gun writers. It really does seem to be a love it or hate it rifle cartridge. While I'll admit that it certainly has its quirks, I'm well and truly firmly entrenched in the first group when it comes to the .458 and I have been an staunch fan of it for more years than I can remember. The .458 Winchester Magnum is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But before I'm accused of caliber racism I have owned a few other big caliber rifles and these include a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby as well as three .458's and I loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the nostalgic romance of the .404. I also like the various .416's -especially the .416 Remington and would own and stake my life on any of the above mentioned cartridges. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 3 rifles chambered in .458, one a standard CZ550 Safari Magnum, one a custom CZ550 and my current .458, a Winchester M70 Safari Express Classic, at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round. I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I choose to now no longer defend it.
Why not?
Because it usually ends up in an argument!
People either don't/ won't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester and they won't waver from it. It can all end up a little frustrating so now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!

"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder/ squib loads”
“Poor quality bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

I think I've heard them all at one stage or another and I don't particularly agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. Back in the day some of the bullets were shockers, solids blowing apart without penetrating as well as being undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does make me wonder is when someone -usually someone new to big bore rifles, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because they read that .458 ammo (that was manufactured 50+years ago!) is suspect.
It'd be a little like refusing to buy a new Holden Commodore because you drove a Holden 50 years ago and had a bad experience with it.
To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridge isn't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, well then that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous?) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse. Horror stories of bullets not penetrating on game, misfires or even bullets bouncing on the ground meters after leaving barrel have all been experienced by hunters and PH’s alike.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.
A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann wrote about this in detail. He penned a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;

"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. The powder was, however, cemented by some sort of chemical action that had occurred in the case. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course).
But what a state that powder was in! It was almost completely cemented (as distinct from caked ball powder) ie. the grains had stuck to each other, but the original air spaces were still present. The powder grains had also changed colour! The fused mass looked like some whitish grey sponge!
Where it was fused to the case walls and bullet bases, it had blackened the brass and the jacket steel, indicating a chemical reaction. There was also evidence that the primers had been affected to varying degrees by the nitro glycerine which had obviously leaked out of the powder..”

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, off the top of my head there's the above mentioned stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together (- even though it wasn't compressed). There was also the original 'solids' blowing apart while being undersize. Let's not forget the Winchester production line also spilled powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated, (yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!) and it took sometime before the Winchester technicians discovered this and rectified it. And finally some companies glued the bullets in place and that glue occasionally leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have all been fixed (decades ago!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will, but I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, well known PH’s/ writers, Grobler, Harland, LaGrange, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 25,000 between them actually and all with the .458 at a velocity of 2000 -2050fps with a 500gr bullet which was typical of the time.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 + elephants, yet are not super compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be one of the more popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'd wager that the summertime up the Northern Territory would get as hot as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and in the hot N.T is where they are field tested.
Now at this speed, yes, the loads will be compressed as will any max load that produces 2100 -2150fps with a 500gr projectile, but time has shown again and again that there is no real problem with compressed loads. As long as it isn't ridiculously compressed to the extent where you actually crush the granules (and change the burn rate), or the projectile is pushed out of the case into the lands (which jacks up pressure considerably, although admittedly in a .458 this shouldn't be a problem with its super long throat) you should be fine.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps (with a 500gr bullet) is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28"+ the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I did with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $20 and with one you can load to the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for any game that can be hunted.
Although I must admit now I favour the lighter non-con (non conventional) bullets over the heavier 500-550gr nowadays, like the excellent CEB, Barnes X, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's. With these new modern ‘super’ bullets you can shoot lighter projectiles, that shoot flatter, faster, with less recoil and that penetrate further than the traditional heavier cup and core projectiles.
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that standard .458 ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the .458 as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the .458 to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally, I would not consider to rechambering my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000 psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
In reality the Lott doesn't have as much of an advantage as most people think. The Lott enjoys a case capacity of around 10% more than the Winchester but that doesn't equate to 10% more velocity. It actually equates to around a 4% increase. With modern top loads the Lott has a 80 – 100 fps advantage over the Winchester which is a lot less than most people think. The Lott is undoubtedly a fine round and it deserves it’s reputation, but to say it's far superior over the standard .458 is simply not true anymore.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, too high a pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the .458 to the Lott, Ackley or especially the Weatherby just to much. In fact a lot of people find the .458 too much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things, it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes missed – or worse, wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

One thing that is unique about the .458 is that it has a very long throat. This is called freebore and in overbore or high capacity cases (such as the Weatherby rounds) this means they can be safely loaded to a higher pressure for a higher velocity. However in the case of the .458 which is neither large case capacity for caliber, or overbore, this freebore isn't an advantage on a standard action. All it does is lower velocity. Well known custom rifle maker Duane Weibe, tells of an experiment of where he fired factory ammo through a .458 rifle and recorded a MV of a little over 1800fps. He then cut 2 threads of the barrel and screwed it back in so he had minimal freebore and the velocity rose to over 2000fps! This is something to bear in mind if fitting a new .458 barrel or going the custom rifle route.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458 will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458 Winchester magnum of today isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So there's my take on the .458 Winchester Magnum. Like I said, I don't really bother defending it any more.
I don't need to. In the last 50 years it has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;

"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.

BBM

My 2506 reliably kills Tahr out to 500yds, and I defend it quite often, so if I follow your lead and get a 460 Weatherby just to make sure I kill stuff, I'm still gonna have to defend it?

I have absolutely no use for a 458 but one built on a Mauser is incredibly tempting.

Imagine a semi-auto one

Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Imagine a semi-auto one

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee e

@Kiwi Greg here you go The Biggest AR Ever: NEMO OMEN .458 Winchester Magnum - Petersen's Hunting

Originally Posted by stug

@Kiwi Greg here you go The Biggest AR Ever: NEMO OMEN .458 Winchester Magnum - Petersen's Hunting

I suspect KG has a better'er idea

Originally Posted by 257weatherby

My 2506 reliably kills Tahr out to 500yds, and I defend it quite often, so if I follow your lead and get a 460 Weatherby just to make sure I kill stuff, I'm still gonna have to defend it?

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me?

Originally Posted by stug

@Kiwi Greg here you go The Biggest AR Ever: NEMO OMEN .458 Winchester Magnum - Petersen's Hunting

That is just toooo awesome for words.

Originally Posted by stug

@Kiwi Greg here you go The Biggest AR Ever: NEMO OMEN .458 Winchester Magnum - Petersen's Hunting

I remember the first time I saw it I couldn't believe that they made it! It's insane - but in the good way..

Originally Posted by Badboymelvin

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me?

Will I still get grief if I lug around something that fire mini busses?, or should I go to the standard vanilla fare that everyone else runs, you know: .270, 7mm08, .308 et all.

Originally Posted by 257weatherby

Will I still get grief if I lug around something that fire mini busses?, or should I go to the standard vanilla fare that everyone else runs, you know: .270, 7mm08, .308 et all.

25-06 is gay. I am simply supporting your claim. But not sure this thread is the place

I like my 458 socom. It can kill anything in nz and can work in semi auto in AR platform .

Originally Posted by Friwi

I like my 458 socom. It can kill anything in nz and can work in semi auto in AR platform .

Interested in performance, barrel length, projectile weight & velocity, might build another upper

Originally Posted by Badboymelvin

By BadboyMelvin.



If ever there was a cartridge that has caused a more heated debate than any other it would have to be the .458 Winchester magnum. For the last 59 years it has been sworn by – and sworn at by PH’s, hunters and gun writers. It really does seem to be a love it or hate it rifle cartridge. While I'll admit that it certainly has its quirks, I'm well and truly firmly entrenched in the first group when it comes to the .458 and I have been an staunch fan of it for more years than I can remember. The .458 Winchester Magnum is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But before I'm accused of caliber racism I have owned a few other big caliber rifles and these include a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby as well as three .458's and I loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the nostalgic romance of the .404. I also like the various .416's -especially the .416 Remington and would own and stake my life on any of the above mentioned cartridges. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 3 rifles chambered in .458, one a standard CZ550 Safari Magnum, one a custom CZ550 and my current .458, a Winchester M70 Safari Express Classic, at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round. I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I choose to now no longer defend it.
Why not?
Because it usually ends up in an argument!
People either don't/ won't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester and they won't waver from it. It can all end up a little frustrating so now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!

"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder/ squib loads”
“Poor quality bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

I think I've heard them all at one stage or another and I don't particularly agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. Back in the day some of the bullets were shockers, solids blowing apart without penetrating as well as being undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does make me wonder is when someone -usually someone new to big bore rifles, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because they read that .458 ammo (that was manufactured 50+years ago!) is suspect.
It'd be a little like refusing to buy a new Holden Commodore because you drove a Holden 50 years ago and had a bad experience with it.
To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridge isn't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, well then that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous?) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse. Horror stories of bullets not penetrating on game, misfires or even bullets bouncing on the ground meters after leaving barrel have all been experienced by hunters and PH’s alike.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.
A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann wrote about this in detail. He penned a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;

"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. The powder was, however, cemented by some sort of chemical action that had occurred in the case. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course).
But what a state that powder was in! It was almost completely cemented (as distinct from caked ball powder) ie. the grains had stuck to each other, but the original air spaces were still present. The powder grains had also changed colour! The fused mass looked like some whitish grey sponge!
Where it was fused to the case walls and bullet bases, it had blackened the brass and the jacket steel, indicating a chemical reaction. There was also evidence that the primers had been affected to varying degrees by the nitro glycerine which had obviously leaked out of the powder..”

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, off the top of my head there's the above mentioned stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together (- even though it wasn't compressed). There was also the original 'solids' blowing apart while being undersize. Let's not forget the Winchester production line also spilled powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated, (yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!) and it took sometime before the Winchester technicians discovered this and rectified it. And finally some companies glued the bullets in place and that glue occasionally leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have all been fixed (decades ago!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will, but I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, well known PH’s/ writers, Grobler, Harland, LaGrange, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 25,000 between them actually and all with the .458 at a velocity of 2000 -2050fps with a 500gr bullet which was typical of the time.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 + elephants, yet are not super compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be one of the more popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'd wager that the summertime up the Northern Territory would get as hot as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and in the hot N.T is where they are field tested.
Now at this speed, yes, the loads will be compressed as will any max load that produces 2100 -2150fps with a 500gr projectile, but time has shown again and again that there is no real problem with compressed loads. As long as it isn't ridiculously compressed to the extent where you actually crush the granules (and change the burn rate), or the projectile is pushed out of the case into the lands (which jacks up pressure considerably, although admittedly in a .458 this shouldn't be a problem with its super long throat) you should be fine.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps (with a 500gr bullet) is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28"+ the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I did with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $20 and with one you can load to the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for any game that can be hunted.
Although I must admit now I favour the lighter non-con (non conventional) bullets over the heavier 500-550gr nowadays, like the excellent CEB, Barnes X, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's. With these new modern ‘super’ bullets you can shoot lighter projectiles, that shoot flatter, faster, with less recoil and that penetrate further than the traditional heavier cup and core projectiles.
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that standard .458 ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the .458 as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the .458 to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally, I would not consider to rechambering my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000 psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
In reality the Lott doesn't have as much of an advantage as most people think. The Lott enjoys a case capacity of around 10% more than the Winchester but that doesn't equate to 10% more velocity. It actually equates to around a 4% increase. With modern top loads the Lott has a 80 – 100 fps advantage over the Winchester which is a lot less than most people think. The Lott is undoubtedly a fine round and it deserves it’s reputation, but to say it's far superior over the standard .458 is simply not true anymore.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, too high a pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the .458 to the Lott, Ackley or especially the Weatherby just to much. In fact a lot of people find the .458 too much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things, it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes missed – or worse, wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

One thing that is unique about the .458 is that it has a very long throat. This is called freebore and in overbore or high capacity cases (such as the Weatherby rounds) this means they can be safely loaded to a higher pressure for a higher velocity. However in the case of the .458 which is neither large case capacity for caliber, or overbore, this freebore isn't an advantage on a standard action. All it does is lower velocity. Well known custom rifle maker Duane Weibe, tells of an experiment of where he fired factory ammo through a .458 rifle and recorded a MV of a little over 1800fps. He then cut 2 threads of the barrel and screwed it back in so he had minimal freebore and the velocity rose to over 2000fps! This is something to bear in mind if fitting a new .458 barrel or going the custom rifle route.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458 will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458 Winchester magnum of today isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So there's my take on the .458 Winchester Magnum. Like I said, I don't really bother defending it any more.
I don't need to. In the last 50 years it has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;

"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.

BBM

And your point is what?

B