Thread: Petrol V EV technolgy from America

Originally Posted by Flyblown

I have a comprehensive spreadsheet that has variables updated monthly to solve for the point in time at which it is economical for us to replace my wife’s 2009 Toyota Highlander 3.5L V6, which we have owned since new. Initially on a company sponsored (very heavily discounted) novated lease, at the end of which we bought the car for next to bugger all.

The spreadsheet analyses the whole of cost of ownership of the old car versus two options, a new Corolla Hybrid and a generic EV (which I select manually each month based on what’s going on in the market as it is changing so quickly.)

The speed at which the gap has closed between keeping the old car (for years a no brainer) to a replacement being more economical is quite frightening, hardly surprising.

But the fact is we are still not quite there yet. It is still more economic for us to keep the big car. Plus the intangible feeling of improved safety by being at least as big and heavy as all the Ute drivers we share the road with around here. The towing part is the bit that annoys the fuck out of me because it’s hard to factor in to the equation. It is an irregular activity with this particular car, but when we do it we’re generally towing something quite big and heavy which would be beyond a small hatchback.

i’ll tell you something for free, when we looked at the long-term service life of this vehicle we did not anticipate $3.10 for 91 in 2022.

You state As big and heavy as the utes etc in your SUV....Did you realise that a Leaf weighs in at 1.7t at the kerb and with a full load has a Tare of 2.15T Over TWO ton for a 5 door hatch back that is not dimensionally much bigger than our Nissan March 1.3l 5 door hatch.........Now thats scary...

Originally Posted by Flyblown

I have a comprehensive spreadsheet that has variables updated monthly to solve for the point in time at which it is economical for us to replace my wife’s 2009 Toyota Highlander 3.5L V6, which we have owned since new. Initially on a company sponsored (very heavily discounted) novated lease, at the end of which we bought the car for next to bugger all.

The spreadsheet analyses the whole of cost of ownership of the old car versus two options, a new Corolla Hybrid and a generic EV (which I select manually each month based on what’s going on in the market as it is changing so quickly.)

The speed at which the gap has closed between keeping the old car (for years a no brainer) to a replacement being more economical is quite frightening, hardly surprising.

But the fact is we are still not quite there yet. It is still more economic for us to keep the big car. Plus the intangible feeling of improved safety by being at least as big and heavy as all the Ute drivers we share the road with around here. The towing part is the bit that annoys the fuck out of me because it’s hard to factor in to the equation. It is an irregular activity with this particular car, but when we do it we’re generally towing something quite big and heavy which would be beyond a small hatchback.

i’ll tell you something for free, when we looked at the long-term service life of this vehicle we did not anticipate $3.10 for 91 in 2022.

I haven't quite gone to this level of detail but also often crunch the numbers to see if I should go to an EV.
I commute over 200kms a day so you'd think that going electric would be a no brainer for the fuel savings.

The problem is the only cars that have enough range to do 200kms are all over 50k, considering you can buy a pretty decent little run around for less than 5k the break even point is over 7 years in which time you'll likely need a new battery or some other new technology will come along and make my 7year old car worthless.
Even if I was to charge up while at work (not easily possible) i'd still need to spend a heap of money to get one that will reliably do my 100km commute as in reality you need almost double the rated range.

I can't just get an EV with 100km of range, I need a bit extra range incase of traffic or detouring for some reason or even to allow for bad weather, so really need 150km to be comfortable.
Then you aren't supposed to run the battery from full 100% to 0% every day, really only meant to use the middle 70ish%, so now need 200km of range.
The you need to factor in battery degredation of about 3% per year, so future proofing for the next 5 years means I should get one with 230km range.
230km of range basically puts me back into buying a new 50k EV, so can't even get a cheap used Leaf.

I wondered if you could buy an old leaf with a worn out battery as they are pretty cheap and usually have very low kms but it seems like replacement batteries aren't even available.....

I also ran this though experiement for my mum who needs a new car.
She lives in town and drives very very little but does a few longer trips, say a 100km trip twice a month, and also does a couple of very long trips a year.
In theory an EV would be perfect for here as her daily trips are very short and a longer trip can easily stop to recharge half way.
But even in this scenario an EV doesn't make much sense.

Her current weekly fuel bill would be barely $30 so hardly breaking the bank.
For her twice a month 100km trip she would need to buy a 30 or 40kW used Leaf but even then the range is a little bit lacking (typically around 120-200 for a used one).
For her long trips only having 200kms range would be doable but would still be annoying.
But a used 40kw leaf is still over 30k, a new 40kW leaf is barely cheaper than the 60kW so over 50k.

It hardly seems worth paying 50k for a new long range leaf just so she can save $30 fuel a week, then with the added inconvience of worrying about charging when doing long trips.
For the same 30k can buy her a brand new car, or a good second hand one for considerably less.

I think the only time and EV really make sense is for people living in the city who have a daily commute of 20-70kms and don't frequently drive more than that, or have another vehicle they can use.
Even then it doesn't make sense as you could just buy a PHEV and get your daily commute (or most of it) done on electric, then still have a petrol engine for the longer trips.

So really unless you can buy a used leaf for very little money, then a new EV is basically just a luxury item/status symbol that only make sense for people who were going to spend 60k on a new commuting car anyway. Also means you can save on your fuel bill/RUCs so you can put that money towards a new rolex.

Do you have a column for RUC for the EV?? Its coming early 2024, and will be the same as all small diesels. $76/1,000 km or some such

Yup

The other issue with EV and our roads is the vibration on the traction motors - any insulation failure results in heat tracking which eventually causes the TM to go by-by. You get a red light on the dash saying 'Driveline requires service contact agent' or similar as you glide to a stop on the side of the road. In NZ it would seem that a replacement TM is more than the vehicle is worth too. Starting to see more of this sort of problem cropping up unfortunately.

I have just had my Landcruiser serviced at a vehicle workshop at Airport Oaks this morning, it was only 16k over the last due service interval.
When I walked around to pick it up at lunchtime I got to talking to the owner of the business, they are struggling along mainly due to the Covid shutdowns and border closures. He has had to transition it to servicing EV's, he a heap of them there, mostly Uber Prius's, reckons people will be shocked three ways.
1. Price of the replacement battery's on a car that in the end is worth fuck all.
2. Some gung ho person doing the repairs themselves and electrocuting themselves.
3. A lot of his business is run on "After Pay" - he gets paid but the client has it on tick with After Pay, he reckons a lot of people simply won't be able to pay it back.

When he replaces the battery's he pays someone $150 to dispose of them, he is unsure where and how he does it.

Originally Posted by 300winmag

I have just had my Landcruiser serviced at a vehicle workshop at Airport Oaks this morning, it was only 16k over the last due service interval.
When I walked around to pick it up at lunchtime I got to talking to the owner of the business, they are struggling along mainly due to the Covid shutdowns and border closures. He has had to transition it to servicing EV's, he a heap of them there, mostly Uber Prius's, reckons people will be shocked three ways.
1. Price of the replacement battery's on a car that in the end is worth fuck all.
2. Some gung ho person doing the repairs themselves and electrocuting themselves.
3. A lot of his business is run on "After Pay" - he gets paid but the client has it on tick with After Pay, he reckons a lot of people simply won't be able to pay it back.

When he replaces the battery's he pays someone $150 to dispose of them, he is unsure where and how he does it.

when i managed a wrecking yard we sent all batteries, lead acid and prius ones to china. The lead was reused after the acid was poured down the drain and the prius batteries were dumped in the sea

Yeah, something like 2K just for the core battery on a 10 year old prius and that doesn't include rlabour, freight or core charge outs and time that the car is off the road. Some of the EV's run packs that can only be taken apart by outfits with specific and expensive equipment to pull, replace and balance the replacement cell/battery units in the main pack. Probably there are people working on a 'better' way to do it...

On the other hand, there's nothing really too dodgy in the hybrid battery packs if you are aware of what the F you are doing and safe the thing properly prior to throwing your attached bits into the circuit. Problem is I guess a lot of private people probably aren't aware of just how much go is in those things if you short them with yourself!

Don't the Tesla battery packs run at 350 volts DC-ish?? @gonetropo should be along to correct us

Whatever, its gonna tingle just a tad more than the 9 volt battery on the tongue trick

Originally Posted by XR500

Don't the Tesla battery packs run at 350 volts DC-ish?? @gonetropo should be along to correct us

Whatever, its gonna tingle just a tad more than the 9 volt battery on the tongue trick

its about that. masses of silly litle 18650's etc all bunched into modules then put in series

Originally Posted by gonetropo

its about that. masses of silly litle 18650's etc all bunched into modules then put in series

How many 18650 batteries are there in a Tesla? The most popular Tesla battery pack contains 7,104 18650 cells in 16 444 cell modules. The entailed capacity by the 18650 batteries stands at 85 kWh of energy.

but for tesla's one battery of the 7000+ goes bad and apparently it takes out the cell module as its throws up an error with the (bms) battery management system, which takes out the whole battery as cant evenly charge - tesla dont replace just one module - whole battery pack time

Originally Posted by Carbine

How many 18650 batteries are there in a Tesla? The most popular Tesla battery pack contains 7,104 18650 cells in 16 444 cell modules. The entailed capacity by the 18650 batteries stands at 85 kWh of energy.

but for tesla's one battery of the 7000+ goes bad and apparently it takes out the cell module as its throws up an error with the (bms) battery management system, which takes out the whole battery as cant evenly charge - tesla dont replace just one module - whole battery pack time

Sounds like a good supply of torch cells!

Originally Posted by 40mm

Sounds like a good supply of torch cells!

most people who have abit of know how can do, buy them to make diy powerbanks for solar panels

What a depressing thread, head in the sand ideology will destroy the world.

Originally Posted by Maca49

What a depressing thread, head in the sand ideology will destroy the world.

Care to share some enlightenment, I would much rather have an EV but don't have $20k to spend on one. Have never owned any vehicle except for current one that I got before EVs were a thing that cost more than $10k