Thread: Crossing show lines

Originally Posted by Ruff

You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...

I agree entirely, I just put both points up to stimulate discussion, I thought you would have something interesting to add to the discussion, and more importantly word it better than me Another interesting thing is being such a violent outcross Speckle never produced anything in her own league.

Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.

I think this is a very interesting point, anything over grandparents are 1/8 or less in the old speak... pretty minimal on their own. As a side note, there was a half show dog used by Mortenson, luckily the other half was the great FTCH Sharnberry Shooter He put this half-show half Sharnberry dog to two separate bitches, Honey and Intrigue, linebreeding on Shooter and minimising the show blood.

My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....

Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels.

Seeing other peoples hunting dogs for remedial training every day, there is probably no one here more qualified to make that statement than you. Can't make a silk purse out of sows ear! Having seen quite a few pointers lately, draws me to the conclusion that the work/show split is as obvious as night and day in that particular breed, never the twain shall meet...

I would doubt it but haven;t worked with a wide enough cross section of both lines to be definitive.

I can ask Whitehead if you like?

Ruff are you a Pointer and Setter man or a Spaniel man? I chatted with Bob about his electric little cockers-great dogs!

Interesting thread and I think I NOW sit on the NO side ... but it's a real dilemma for everyone.
We all love our dogs ... sometimes more than the wife and kids!?
We love their breeding with the hope that it will increase the chances of getting a great dog with superb skills.
This documentary changed the way I look at our (humans) responsibility towards dogs ... do we genuinely love them?
This is a YouTube documentary called "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" by the BBC.

You have to remember biddabillity in the show ring only has to last for 2 minutes...that is the allotted span for each individual evaluation...

Originally Posted by el borracho

It is interesting talking to people that use dogs to hunt birds that cross with show lines to slow their dogs down to a sedate pace for Jo average.

Sounds more like an excuse than a reason.

I dont know Ruff but do you train others dogs ? I see from looking through dog photos you have a spaniel and a lab.

RCGSP - I couldn't even find that quote of mine you used , where was it from ?
Its a funny ol thing were talking here because there's several pups out there from this particular Northland breeder that he says people are very happy with for shooting pheasant and retrieving ducks . In saying that either their expectations are less than ours or the dogs work ok --the Dam is from working lines I believe though.
Interesting points raised so far though being bidability and trainability and also that a hunter that doesnt appreciate the finer points of working dogs should have a soft toy not a real dog ---now at what stage will we then say these mix line dogs are from working lines if they are working ??

Originally Posted by el borracho

RCGSP - and also that a hunter that doesnt appreciate the finer points of working dogs should have a soft toy not a real dog ---

See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home. As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home. As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.

Wirehunt are you talking crossing your dogs with different breeds ? This is really talking about pure breed bird dogs from both show and working lines being crossed and the effects from those crosses .
I take it your talking pig dogs ??

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home. As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.

I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs. Rabbiters need to be bred/selected for a relatively small number of traits. Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.

Originally Posted by RCGSP

I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs. Rabbiters need to be bred/selected for a relatively small number of traits. Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.

I would agree with Ryan 100 % on this , there are many things in the ability frame work and temperament that must be recognized and breed for !!

Upnorth Uplander is a good hunter of birds and has no problem with the mix "for only closer hunting " ? opinion on this Z or in general has it or do you think it isnt the hindrance we like to believe it is .

Now field trialing that dog may be very hard though!!!!! ????

Originally Posted by el borracho

Upnorth Uplander is a good hunter of birds and has no problem with the mix "for only closer hunting " ? opinion on this Z or in general has it or do you think it isnt the hindrance we like to believe it is

The thing is, you have to look at the dogs in question. Uplander had the half Irish bitch with him for a season or two, he knows her performance. I have seen her in person also, she is a hard running bitch, big and fast. Those in the know reckon she is better than her full work blooded dam. I think his male dog of the older NZ working lines, who I was fortunate enough to have had the pleasure of shooting over this season, would go well over her. While not a mating I would do, things can only improve, being 3/4 work.

As a side note, she was in turn mated to another show dog, so sadly those pups were unfortunately 3/4 show. I have seen pups from this mating as well; respectfully all I will say is, is that they a far cry from thier Irish FTCH ancestors. Two matings is all it took

Originally Posted by RCGSP;54053 [B

I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs.[/B] Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.

I find that rather amusing. Done much of it? It is in fact one of the harder ones to do as so much is expected of them.
Kill ferrets, BUT not mine
Range long in open ground
Don't range in tight ground
Retrieve is very handy
Kill cats
Don't touch possums
Bail pigs if I say so
Indicate live holes
Don't touch dead shit (this is hardest of the lot)
DO NOT bark in the kennels
Bark when onto something

If your good enough come deer stalking with me, but don't chase them!

Originally Posted by el borracho

RCGSP - I couldn't even find that quote of mine you used , where was it from ?

The end of the article on that spanner