Thread: Crossing show lines

"A dog has to be good to win a fairly judged chamionship trial, but a great dog not properly polished or handled, will not win much. Obedience that is not up to championship standard will let him down. When breeding, knowing a dog is far more important than his trial wins". Quoted from "Bird Dogs, Yesterday Today & Tomorrow" by Dr Leon Mortensen

Originally Posted by Ruff

I agree... performance alone would be enough for me... at some point you need to test of there is some ability to pass on the desired traits... it is unlikely the pedigree will indicate how.

I agree. Measured as you said against other great dogs, if the show cross was doing well, then why wouldn't you use it. But as you put above, being a great dog is one thing, being able to produce one is quite a different thing.

To me, maintaining the integraty of the breed, in type, conformation, exemplary prey drive and soundness of temperament is paramount. The European example where the dog must have a 'beauty' award in the showring as part of their field title helps in maintaining this integraty.

Europe's a diverse place where are you referring to ? and are their aesthetic confirmations different to ours .

France...I do not know that except for those of the Epagneul Breton where musculature, allure, correct height, etc are greatly valued and even the dentation (with some judges being pendantic to the point of counting every tooth (they recognise the breed as a HUNTING DOG in the purest sense)...I do know however that the English Setter is highly regarded in France and Italy. Furthermore bitches and dogs are confirmed before they can be bred from.

As I am strongly involved in spaniels, I can see the positive and negative points of the system. Along the FCI rules a dog needs 2 CACT or 2 CACIT's and a "very good" in show to become a FTCH or Int FTCH. This also has bad aspects. It would be O.K if they only accept dogs bred under this rules. But it's perfectly possible to trial a dog ( spaniel, pointing breed or retriever) bred in the U.K for work only. These dogs frequently are superior in pace, drive, style, etc...... He might never become a FTCH but still win many trials. Personally I think that the FCI system isn't good. I do not longer believe in the " good and beautifull" idea. In Germany there is a strong connection between field and bench for their working dogs and they have nothing to compete against the other countries in Europe. Looking for a bird dog I would never buy a GSP in Germany.

Trial spaniels in the UK. , these days, are very fast and stylish. But also are far to small, light in body and most dramaticly lack hunting desire and gamefinding ability. They look extremely spectacular on light ground but don't seem to know what they are doing. The ribcage is that tiny that there is no longer place for decent lungs and so lack stamina. I've seem French dual purpose springers been mixed up with British trial stuff and produce good, strong spaniels with plenty of size, ribcage and stamina. Dogs that still can fetch a pheasant out of a river with 3/4 feet high steep banks.

The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy. Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game.
I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock. In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer. Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy. Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game.
I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock. In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer. Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.

Hi Smut. I can't speak of spaniels as I have no experience whatsoever with them, but I essentially agree with the rest of your statement. In regards to your comment about Italian and French pointers, I agree 100% - there was a thread on this forum a while back about it. It is too easy to get caught up in the romance of big running dogs, but some of these Italian dogs are taking 2 years to stand game - many hundreds of birds. Some are hunting with the eye and not the nose, and the fact that thier trials system doesn't select for the best hunting dog anymore. I feel someone here looking to bring in a pointer to NZ would do well to avoid those countries.

As for your comment about putting trials blood to a good shooting line, one of our great dogmen here in NZ, Dr. Mortenson reckoned it was the quickest way to ruin a good shooting line haha!

Our trials line is our shooting line so whadya mean Pointer ? In saying that having seen some of the dogs run from Italy they appear to run hugggeeee on fairly flat ground with little cover -past that I know squat of them .
Our trial dogs must be able to hunt first and formost

El B, i think in NZ we have working lines and show lines, with in the working lines there is a split between the hunting and the trial lines, its small but its there

I have always figured for "most hunters" a dog decision is made fairly blindly so they could be show breed dogs or just dogs breed with not always a great deal og knowledge going into the mix -of course there are some that make an effort .In saying that our trial pool is not so great that many would in affect have one of these dogs either from Pointer Setter variety especially from the GSP breed and certainly the lab , spaniel bunch also .My thoughts

Pointer wrote...

As for your comment about putting trials blood to a good shooting line, one of our great dogmen here in NZ, Dr. Mortenson reckoned it was the quickest way to ruin a good shooting line haha!

I do think there is merit in this especially regarding dogs run in pigeon trials....and begging your pardon El B, you can tell the trial dogs that are hunted from those which are not...

Originally Posted by el borracho

I have always figured for "most hunters" a dog decision is made fairly blindly so they could be show breed dogs or just dogs breed with not always a great deal og knowledge going into the mix -of course there are some that make an effort .In saying that our trial pool is not so great that many would in affect have one of these dogs either from Pointer Setter variety especially from the GSP breed and certainly the lab , spaniel bunch also .My thoughts

Wow, a pretty Big claim there mate. I have always believe trials are an extremely valuable test but... and here's is my main axiom... "when the trial becomes the end goal, the breed is fucked"

A trial MUST always be a test of the BEST hunting dog... when it is the best trial dog the point is lost.... and I've been trialling in NZ since 1984 and Live Game trialling since 1989.

I agree, Ruff...people who are serious about shooting are not going to be bothered with just any dog..they want one that is going to bring home the game...the dog that takes your breathe away with their malicious intent and possession is what makes shooting over the dog so exciting and somehow hugely humbling...it is ancient...

Originally Posted by EeeBees

I agree, Ruff...people who are serious about shooting are not going to be bothered with just any dog..they want one that is going to bring home the game...the dog that takes your breathe away with their malicious intent and possession is what makes shooting over the dog so exciting and somehow hugely humbling...it is ancient...

No, we disagree....

You see some use the axiom quoted above to dismiss why their dog does not excell in trials... that's just a cop out.

A great hunting dog is a great trialling dog... until the trials are changed to suit the trial dog... to date, and from what I have seen, this has not happened in NZ.

But must always be forward in our thoughts.

Originally Posted by el borracho

Our trials line is our shooting line so whadya mean Pointer ?

Mortensons words not mine. I do, however disagree that the trialling line is the shooting line, especially in pointers, as Uplander said.

I'm with Ruff, the day the focus becomes titles and silverware, we're buggered. Our P&S system is a flawed enough yard stick as it is