Thread: Crossing show lines

Originally Posted by Pointer

Mortensons words not mine. I do, however disagree that the trialling line is the shooting line, especially in pointers, as Uplander said.

I'm with Ruff, the day the focus becomes titles and silverware, we're buggered. Our P&S system is a flawed enough yard stick as it is

Please explain flawed ?All Contests are about silverware

I cannot comment on the trialers of today as I really don't know many very personally but yes I agree first and foremost a dog ''must" be able to hunt .
The guys I trialed with when I last trialed all hunted to my knowledge and I hunted plenty of pheasants with a few of them
As far as pigeon trials go some dislike them I enjoy them and see them as a place to show the skill and manners of an animal - some what circus like to a degree but most certainly few dogs excell and the average dog and handler little to no hope .

I always believe the proofs in the pudding and although I dont shoot alot nowdays I still hunt my dog full on !

The flaws in our testing system have been thrashed to death, I'm sure you have heard it all before. Still, it's all we have. I'm all for it, as long as people can see it for what it is

Well of course there is flaws... the difference, simply, between a scenario where it is you and your dog and when it is you, two guns, a judge, a steward and gallery must have an effect.... Trials are a wonderful judging standard, but should never be considered the be all and end all... there are many many ways to judge and astertsain a dogs ability and the thinking man who wants a better dog (NOT a better trialling dog) takes all things into consideration as he or she makes decisions on how they wish to take the breeds forward. Trials are a wonderul benchmark, but they are not the ONLY one... We have new person here posting on the forum using the name "Hales Smut"... Hales Smut was the most influential dog on the modern spaniel breed, in my opinion, He may have won a trial, possibly not, but he certainly never titled, and yet he lives in legend as one of the most significant dogs in history.... I have Brick of Ballyblack so I understand this well... Trials are an indicator, they ARE NOT the only scale by which any thinking dog person will ever judge a great dog.

Exactly !!!Its just about all we have given we don't have moor's and prairies full of game .I have never been one to complain about a fun time and an opportunity to see great running and pointing by good dogs --it aint easy other wise we would all be winning .
The live game trials are where its at but as I said above -no facilities to successfully run them consistently with game.
Will I compete against you at some time Pointer ???

Originally Posted by el borracho

Exactly !!!Its just about all we have given we don't have moor's and prairies full of game .I have never been one to complain about a fun time and an opportunity to see great running and pointing by good dogs --it aint easy other wise we would all be winning .
The live game trials are where its at but as I said above -no facilities to successfully run them consistently with game.
Will I compete against you at some time Pointer ???

Hunting or trialling.... I got grounds if you both want to come.... and if you trust me me to judge...

No doubt El B, but not for a while, I don't have anything worth running at present

Originally Posted by Pointer

No doubt El B, but not for a while, I don't have anything worth running at present

considering pointer posted this , I dont see any bullshit from him RUFF

Originally Posted by upnorth uplander

considering pointer posted this , I dont see any bullshit from him RUFF

Thats exactly it, I'm honest about my dogs abilities. I'm the first to admit both of our shortcomings. But if there is one thing that dog does well, and it has saved him from oblivion more than once, is that he can find and handle pheasants. Ruff I thought you were being sporting in letting us both have crack at your pheasants haha!?

Most people who know me, know that I have made a habit over the last three years of inviting triallists and dogmen (dogwomen too) with known good dogs to my place or grounds I have access to hunt. So far I have I've seen germans, huns, good setters of both varieties (gordons don't count), even a frog dog once! As of recently I have spent a lot of time and money travelling far and wide looking at dogs and meeting people. Also, watching trials in a few different countries. Trust me, there are no rose-tinted glasses to be worn here when it comes to discussing my own dog.

I would be mad to tell a guy whos' dog has won at champ level that my dog is better than his, quite frankly that is naive, and as EL B indicated better left to the trials format. The only way I could ever compete with such a dog wouldn't be on manners, it would be on finds, hence saying if the match was on equal terms, it would be a good day out. Especially when they are your birds


Back to the discussion, I'm going to post a pedigree here, I think it is relevant to the initial discussion. My apologies if anyone owns this dog! El B asked when does a half show dog cease to be show?

Here is a pedigree Ledgands Pointer Pedigree Database

The sire, is the greatest home bred pointer NZ has seen, the only dog to consistantly beat Woody, FTCH Wingfield Banner QC. As good a sire as you could find in NZ from what is considered arguably the best mating to happen in NZ. The Aussie dam,has show in her background. Both show dogs were mated to FTCHs, one of those champions being the sire of Banner, the excellent Irish import FTCH Innistona Shoot, making a useful 6.25% linebreeding on him, the best sire to come to NZ. The other half show mating produced a dual champion, and anything that can win under the Aussie trials format will probably be better than our stuff.

Im my view, the show crosses has been proven, and obviously worked well to win in thier trials. This to me is an example of when its safe to say show blood has been mitigated successfully. Obviously the progeny will the ultimate test, this is was just a purely academic example.

You mean just for me and Pointer.Id enjoy a catch up in bid season to run and or shoot over each others dogs

If the match is based apon finds not polish, sure

the lot , a finished dog.Id rather catch up for sheer dogging pleasure and leave contests to live game trials under pressure of performance and polish

I do think that Ruff misunderstood. I think you initial comment meant compete against me in a trial, and yes that will have to wait until the next dog. If you meant a match, then if the match is based on polish and manners it would be waste of time for me to turn up, a triallists dog would always beat the hunters dog every time. However, if Ruff was to propose a match in which a way that the number of finds and shootable birds presented for the gun was the criteria, then yeah, I'd give it a go. Be a good day out. Getting to shoot Ruffs birds will always be a good day out .


*edit* what does this have to do with show dogs?

hell yes id hunt his birds too but in saying that what would a one off contest achieve ?nothing either way

Well, I'm not stupid enough to invite you two bastards to shoot my birds, but you do have to make up your minds... LOL

Let's not just wank on in a forum environment.... and I think we have here a perfect match... a trial dog and a hunting dog... kind of...

I am gonna piss them both off now... cause the trial dog isn't going to hunt well, from what the handler says, and the hunting isn't going to have polish as the hunting fella says...


so from where i stand, neither of you have meet the standard because the standard requires a great hunting dog with polish... if neither of you have that you are blowing bulshit up everyone's arse.

So the question is, do either of you have a great hunting dog that can front up in a trial and show how good it is, do either of you have a trial dog that can front up and show how well it hunts, or are you both just pissing on our shoes and telling us it's raining????