Thread: Crossing show lines

state your case

Originally Posted by RCGSP

Well that's just not true

Yep... sad but true

I reckon our system rewards the wrong type of dog sometimes. What is greater, a dog that puts on consistent displays of great work, ranging, finding and producing birds, or a mediocre dog that gets placings because it didn't do anything wrong?

Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners . Part of a "finished" dogs make up should be their good manners both in trial and field especially when you hunt with other dogs --backing - obeying whistle commands consistently -retrieving game - utilizing the ground to best effect - finding finding finding ,hopefully holding

One could be critical of the type of ranging a dog does in the trials compared to the reality of cover we actually have on a whole in NZ but I haven't been to the live game trials for years and haven't seen the current crop of dogs work that cover -Ryan has .


I haven't been around the current trial people long enough at all to know if they hunt their dogs or not but from my past years we were all hard out upland game hunters and for some with continentals both duck and upland game hunters .

My thoughts and experiences come from 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Pointer

Yep... sad but true

I reckon our system rewards the wrong type of dog sometimes. What is greater, a dog that puts on consistent displays of great work, ranging, finding and producing birds, or a mediocre dog that gets placings because it didn't do anything wrong?

this kinda doesnt make sense ??as the dog didnt do anything wrong , found pointed and had good manners --what more is it that you want to see

I have been sent a very interesting article from Robyn Gaskin which is frank and honest about field trialing and have asked if I can publish it here .If so I will place it under a new thread -Its a good read !

Originally Posted by el borracho

Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners . Part of a "finished" dogs make up should be their good manners both in trial and field especially when you hunt with other dogs --backing - obeying whistle commands consistently -retrieving game - utilizing the ground to best effect - finding finding finding ,hopefully holding

One could be critical of the type of ranging a dog does in the trials compared to the reality of cover we actually have on a whole in NZ but I haven't been to the live game trials for years and haven't seen the current crop of dogs work that cover -Ryan has .


I haven't been around the current trial people long enough at all to know if they hunt their dogs or not but from my past years we were all hard out upland game hunters and for some with continentals both duck and upland game hunters .

My thoughts and experiences come from 10 years ago

It makes absolute sense and has been a problem with our pigeon trial negative judging system for a long time... Pigeon trials rewardthe training more than the dog. A dynamic with great pace style and finding ability can be penalised on a minor handling issue where as a mediocre dog, of less natural ability but with either better training, or by virtue of its mediocrity doesn;t put a foot wrong and wins... this is fine, but it does nothing for the future of the breeds.

Pointer and Ruff have already hit the main points I had in mind. I will say that I feel it extends beyond just the negative judging system though.

It's a bit difficult to explain in a post as I don't really have time to spell it all out.

I think trialling is very important especially for breeders but I think what's important to take away from it is not the ribbons and toasted sandwich makers but what you learn from seeing your dogs run against others. People bag on pigeon trials but I like the because I can see my dogs run the same ground and the same birds as a variety of other dogs and to me it makes for the most accurate comparison.

Originally Posted by el borracho

I sometimes wonder if were just juggling semantics - how many of us are really running and seeing enough animals hunting ,trialing to make proper decisions -I know I have not and dont really know any others that can as they are only seeing what they choose to see -its a great big community of unseen dogs and even a contest of 2 dogs does not answer to many questions

How much is enough?

I've owned/trained/trialed/hunted 3 pointing breeds in 2 countries under half a dozen trial formats and 3 testing systems and I currently own dogs from whelped in 4 different countries and have seen and hunted over dogs from several others. I don't claim to be an expert but I think I have a reasonable perspective.

Originally Posted by Ruff

It makes absolute sense and has been a problem with our pigeon trial negative judging system for a long time... Pigeon trials rewardthe training more than the dog. A dynamic with great pace style and finding ability can be penalized on a minor handling issue where as a mediocre dog, of less natural ability but with either better training, or by virtue of its mediocrity doesnt put a foot wrong and wins... this is fine, but it does nothing for the future of the breeds.

what your failing to recognize here is consistency of dog !!

Mediocre may have a win but the better dogs will win consistently .
What do you term as a minor handling issue ?

One thing one notes about dogs is they also have their off days ,they screw up and dont do the best job on any given day so consistency over time and trials must be recognized rather than a one win .

A negative judging system doesn't appeal to all but is based on your dog going about its work with the least amount of handling possible -a dog that knows whats it there to do gets on with the task at hand.A dog that consistently screws up may in fact be being handled poorly and the handler may need to revisit their training .I feel people make excuses for their lack of in put into training their dogs -if you feel you have lost consistently or seen this it might be you that needs to change their view on whose dog is better than another's --I fail to have a problem with it personally --what would you all suggest is better given our poor game areas and numbers and ability to run live game trials ???

This was said to me by a very knowledgeable and able Dog person and I agree with 100%

I am constantly amazed by the attitude of people who don’t trial with respect to dogs who do. Every P&S dog who has been titled in NZ game trials (and I certainly would NOT claim this for pigeon trials) is a hunting dog. They are work-bred hunting dogs who have been taught manners and proven they can perform to a high standard in a public arena on WILD birds. There may well be better dogs out there, but we will never know unless they compete.

Where do folk get the idea that you can win game trials (or braced pigeon trials for that matter) by being mediocre and doing no wrong? You must do a lot right! Judges withhold wins regularly from sub-standard performances. This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.

Originally Posted by el borracho

This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.

There is a minimum standard in down the line as well. A dog must score at least a 75 to get a challenge point. It has been withheld many times.

that is a good thing then as it doesn't allow challenge point wins for sub standard work which would be undermining our ability to say we have high standards amongst our working dogs

Originally Posted by el borracho

Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners

Either you and I have different perceptions of mediocre, or I hadn't explained that properly. Ruff hit it on the head, how can a consistently great gamefinder who makes a mistake and is out worse than a mediocre gamefinder who gets the nod because he made no mistakes? Rewarding the handler, not the breeder.

Originally Posted by el borracho

This was said to me by a very knowledgeable and able Dog person and I agree with 100%

...Where do folk get the idea that you can win game trials (or braced pigeon trials for that matter) by being mediocre and doing no wrong? You must do a lot right! Judges withhold wins regularly from sub-standard performances. This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.

Quoting other people without naming them means nothing...

Short answer - your dogs ok your not that's how

It is utter folly to base your breeding programme on a competition base...especially when the competition format has small or miniscle numbers involved as it is in this country...if there were entries of 40 plus dogs it might make some difference...in the meantime, any breeder with even only a couple of neurons synapsing happily will know that conformation, type, prey drive, stamina, courage yardy yardy yardy are really what allows a breed to sustain itself and to endure..