Thread: no lead from 2021

However hunters using smaller shotguns such as 20 gauge have been exempt, primarily due to the previous limited availability and high price of non-toxic ammunition for these guns.

so Bryce Johnson whats changed.
you said the insignificant number of 20 gauge users was to small to be bothered regulateing. against[

New Zealand scientific studies showed the problem was the same here as in overseas countries,” Mr Johnson says.

Bryce Johnson says extending the non-toxic shot requirement to most shotguns was inevitable.

Right: 20 Gauge ammunition is coloured yellow to differentiate it from other gauges.

“At the moment, nine out of ten of our hunting licence holders already use non-toxic shot because they own 10 or 12 gauge shotguns.

Advances in ammunition manufacture means good quality non-toxic shot is now available for smaller shotguns, so we are asking the small minority left to follow their example,” Mr Johnson says.

1] bullshit how could it be even phil Robertson said how different our birds and hunting conditions/areas were
2] so how many licence holders is that your costing fun fortune and stress as they try and find ammo no bastards gonna bring in for such a tiny market
your tunes changed pretty quick a year or two go stenning and his ilk were fantasists and over stepping their responcibilities to their licence buyers.
same bullshit different idiots
no supply wrong loads in the wrong shot sizes same as the 12.
mark my words nothing will be learned.

Does anyone hunt gamebirds with a 10 gauge or no of enyone who does. Does this apply to 16 gauges cus there fek all 16 gauge rounds let alone steel

Here is a link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14567226

Here is the article summary on the link. Speaks for itself. Would you feed one of these ducks your kids, or to your dog?

J Wildl Dis. 2003 Jul;39(3):638-48.

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos).
Brewer L1, Fairbrother A, Clark J, Amick D.

Author information
1 EBA, Inc., P.O. Box 554, 2900 Quakenbush Road, Snow Camp, North Carolina 27349, USA.

Abstract
Twenty mallards (Anas platyrhynchos) of both sexes were dosed by oral gavage with Heavi-Shot (H-S; Environ-Metal, Inc., Sweet Home, Oregon, USA) pellets, 20 with steel shot, and 10 with lead (Pb) pellets, all of equal size. All pellets were fired from a shotgun into an absorbent material, retrieved, and weighed prior to introduction into the ducks. Birds were fed whole kernel corn and grit and observed for signs of toxicity for 30 days following dosing. Hevi-Shot pellets lost an average of 6.2% of their mass and steel shot pellets lost 57% of their mass in the birds' gizzards. Almost all (90%) of the Pb shot dosed birds died before the end of the study, while no mortality was observed in the steel or H-S dosed groups. Even though total food consumption differed between the H-S and steel shot groups, mean bird weight change was not different. There were no significant morphologic or histopathologic abnormalities of the liver and kidney in the H-S and steel shot groups. Results indicated that mallards dosed orally with eight No. 4 H-S pellets were not adversely affected over a 30-day period, and that H-S provides another environmentally safe nontoxic shot for use in waterfowl hunting.

PMID: 14567226 DOI: 10.7589/0090-3558-39.3.638 [Indexed for MEDLINE]

Originally Posted by Cordite

Here is a link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14567226

Here is the article summary on the link. Speaks for itself. Would you feed one of these ducks your kids, or to your dog?

J Wildl Dis. 2003 Jul;39(3):638-48.

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos).
Brewer L1, Fairbrother A, Clark J, Amick D.

Author information
1 EBA, Inc., P.O. Box 554, 2900 Quakenbush Road, Snow Camp, North Carolina 27349, USA.

Abstract
Twenty mallards (Anas platyrhynchos) of both sexes were dosed by oral gavage with Heavi-Shot (H-S; Environ-Metal, Inc., Sweet Home, Oregon, USA) pellets, 20 with steel shot, and 10 with lead (Pb) pellets, all of equal size. All pellets were fired from a shotgun into an absorbent material, retrieved, and weighed prior to introduction into the ducks. Birds were fed whole kernel corn and grit and observed for signs of toxicity for 30 days following dosing. Hevi-Shot pellets lost an average of 6.2% of their mass and steel shot pellets lost 57% of their mass in the birds' gizzards. Almost all (90%) of the Pb shot dosed birds died before the end of the study, while no mortality was observed in the steel or H-S dosed groups. Even though total food consumption differed between the H-S and steel shot groups, mean bird weight change was not different. There were no significant morphologic or histopathologic abnormalities of the liver and kidney in the H-S and steel shot groups. Results indicated that mallards dosed orally with eight No. 4 H-S pellets were not adversely affected over a 30-day period, and that H-S provides another environmentally safe nontoxic shot for use in waterfowl hunting.

PMID: 14567226 DOI: 10.7589/0090-3558-39.3.638 [Indexed for MEDLINE]

That is rather misleading. How much shot were they force fed and how does that compare to the amount of lead ingested by birds in the wild? There was a study done here and it worked out that with the sub guage shotguns the likelihood of finding any lead shot in a bird was something like 4/100th of 1%.

It is more about politics to show they are doing something as they push for cleaner waterways from other polluters.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

That is rather misleading. How much shot were they force fed and how does that compare to the amount of lead ingested by birds in the wild? There was a study done here and it worked out that with the sub guage shotguns the likelihood of finding any lead shot in a bird was something like 4/100th of 1%.

It is more about politics to show they are doing something as they push for cleaner waterways from other polluters.

I get the 410 exemption to get kids started but what about people who physicly cant use the 12 and the 410 wouldn't not be useful to for their waterfowling or goose hunting.
seems just as much consideration should be given to keeping older and frail hunters in the field as well.
they know no ones gonna bring in 20/16/28 steel they f&g just don't give a monkeys.
after all duckshooters are nothing but a poor returni and a pain in the arse.
all ways wanting ducks to hunt and places to put up maimais.
hassling us and doc to keep our creeks waterways and tracks clear anyone would think they pay a 100 buks for the priveledge.
ooh oops

Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on. Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too
with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key. Most of my ducks are shot within 15-25 m . Its not going to change and to be frank there are much bigger issues to worry about like firearms amendment recommendations. Are we all going to be crying years after the fact that our semi auto's are gone ?

I dont really give a shit what I shoot out the end of the barrel but I hunt with a 28ga and a 20ga. I would ask where can I buy the non-toxic loads for these?? Anyone................................Anyone...... ..................no.

When / if they are available at what cost?

I once got hold of a 1lb bottle of "Nice shot" ,from the USA, which was great stuff but it worked out at $7 worth of shot per cartridge which for duck shooting is madness @ 16 1oz reloads from a 1lb. It was great stuff and killed really well but at a cost.


Nice Shot Inc

Originally Posted by Nathan F

Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on. Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too
with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key. Most of my ducks are shot within 15-25 m . Its not going to change and to be frank there are much bigger issues to worry about like firearms amendment recommendations. Are we all going to be crying years after the fact that our semi auto's are gone ?

I've never shot game birds with lead. However if changes are made then they must be justified and reasonable. Would you like the powers that be to just say you can no longer have any firearms with no reasons given? With lead shot in sub gauges the numbers simply do not stack up for a ban. So why has it been pushed? It is certainly not justified nor reasonable. This points more to it being used as a political lever for something else.

i agree with nathan f, move on and protect what we have, it was always going to happen after southland kept pushing the issue and letters were sent to the minister and i would say there's a few guys down there that think they just saved xmas for everyone.
the point not mentioned is the minister stopped short of a total ban on all lead shot in all gauges even outside the game bird season.......yep total ban, and who the hell wanted that ?
what the bright sparks down south don't realise is that once you start banning or losing shit it gives weight to other issues that may suddenly appear........plastic wads and shooting spoonies being my main concern.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

I've never shot game birds with lead. However if changes are made then they must be justified and reasonable. Would you like the powers that be to just say you can no longer have any firearms with no reasons given? With lead shot in sub gauges the numbers simply do not stack up for a ban. So why has it been pushed? It is certainly not justified nor reasonable. This points more to it being used as a political lever for something else.

I don't know. I can see pro's and con's on both sides. Im not big on conspiracy theories.

Originally Posted by Nathan F

I don't know. I can see pro's and con's on both sides. Im not big on conspiracy theories.

I'm the same on the pros and cons side. From relevant studies there isn't actually that much in favour of steel. One of the big things was the fertility rate of birds dropped with lead in their system. Yet there was also evidence that steel shot resulted in a lot more wounded birds and as a result the number of dead birds increased. The drop in overall bird numbers through the wounding tended to outweighed the drop in fertility. So if the numbers didn't stack up then why was the lead ban introduced?

Any argument about keeping lead out of the environment is really quite irrelevant, it is mined and processed from the environment. It is not a man made substance.

the point not mentioned is the minister stopped short of a total ban on all lead shot in all gauges even outside the game bird season.......yep total ban, and who the hell wanted that ?
what the bright sparks down south don't realise is that once you start banning or losing shit it gives weight to other issues that may suddenly appear........plastic wads and shooting spoonies being my main concern.

would she have gone that far given the heli shooters wont use steel in the braided river beds??

Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on. Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too
with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key.

no slamming about it Nathan f here your opinions as valued as anyone elses.
well given ive got 2 boxes of what I'm told is the only available steel 20 gauge ammo in the country remote useful for waterfowl,and steel still cant be used for clays so practise is out,
where would you suggest Nathan f we get the ammo chokes and marksmenship practise??.
would you say the introduction of 12 steel was handled well or did we get a load of mis information by so called sponsored experts that probably cost thousands of wounded waterfowl.
I would darely like to avoid the same mess but given I cant get one supplier to say the will bring in 20 gauge steel let alone the even less used gauges,i cant see that mess being avoided again.
what am I supposed to do??.buy a 12 I cant use properly because they fucked up and didn't do their job right in the first place.
or because they created a market for subgauges which they,ve unilateraly decided now is an embarrassment.??
yes steels passable and kills things when you use the right loads and shotsizes but subgauges are way more sensitive to this and there wont be the steel ammo choice of the 12 guareentee it.[img][/img]
just over half these parries were killed with the only 20 gauge steel waterfowl load available 3 inch blackcloud 2,s
it was not pretty broken wings tight elongated and or uneven patterns out of a quarter choke even.

Interesting about plastic wads.
Haven't used them for a number of years here in the U.K.
All fibre wads. For pheasant and partridge as land owners don't want there ground covered in plastic.

Originally Posted by Sideshow

Interesting about plastic wads.
Haven't used them for a number of years here in the U.K.
All fibre wads. For pheasant and partridge as land owners don't want there ground covered in plastic.

Same I use fibre wads when hunting however the ground(s) I shoot clays on look like a wad delivery truck has had a messy accident

and i have no issue with using Non-Tox shot if only I could buy it locally

People seem to have conveniently short memories and forget that prior to the restrictions on 12G lead usage, there was no non-toxic ammo available here, despite it being readily available overseas. Yet once the restrictions were imposed, the importers started bringing it in....so too will it happen next year for sub-gauges. One importer I spoke to has already confirmed such. First, without a demand, there is simply no need to supply.