Thread: No more Duckshooting??

Fish and Game sent emails to licence holders last week asking for input. I have spoken to a F&G rep today and they are in process of forming a full submission. Believe me, F&G are very much on our side and deserve all our support.

I think COLFO is being a little bit clever here .
I think it is quite a jump to assume that the wording relates to steel shot and is the end of Duck season .
Headlines of “ End of Duck Shooting “ is what will get the large sector of procrastinators , deniers , and uneducated firearms owners off their fat arses and actually start doing something and hopefully start making some noise about the stupid new laws .
Finally it has started to dawn on average guy .

Originally Posted by Ground Control

I think COLFO is being a little bit clever here .
I think it is quite a jump to assume that the wording relates to steel shot and is the end of Duck season .
Headlines of “ End of Duck Shooting “ is what will get the large sector of procrastinators , deniers , and uneducated firearms owners off their fat arses and actually start doing something and hopefully start making some noise about the stupid new laws .
Finally it has started to dawn on average guy .

Yes, I think the intent of the Bill is steel cored rifle projectiles (think armour piercing) but its getting mileage as there is potential, maybe, to apply this to steel shot. F&G has openly put this on their FB page but, it appears as a bit of a dig at COLFO which again has F&G appearing to be looking at the small picture again and only supporting their guys and not all LFAO.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

I think COLFO is being a little bit clever here .
I think it is quite a jump to assume that the wording relates to steel shot and is the end of Duck season .
Headlines of “ End of Duck Shooting “ is what will get the large sector of procrastinators , deniers , and uneducated firearms owners off their fat arses and actually start doing something and hopefully start making some noise about the stupid new laws .
Finally it has started to dawn on average guy .

A few weeks ago our lawyers were looking carefully at the Police Minister’s definitions of newly prohibited ammunition. One category – termed “enhanced penetration ammunition” – likely includes all steel shot in shotgun cartridges. The definition reads: “Projectiles that have a steel or tungsten carbide penetrator intended to achieve better penetration.”
I’m no lawyer in fact I may be a criminal as I have a box or two.
But.
Im sure that steel shot is not used to infancy penetration but used because greenies wanted it, I think it reduces it effectiveness.
But well done Colfo for trying.

Legislation enacted in haste is almost always bad law.
This is yet another example of unintended consequence of poor law.

It annoys the cr#p out of me when Minister Nash says he's not listening to the gun lobby when he is.
The Police Association is one of the largest gun lobbiest - only they're anti gun, except for themselves.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

I think COLFO is being a little bit clever here .
I think it is quite a jump to assume that the wording relates to steel shot and is the end of Duck season .
Headlines of “ End of Duck Shooting “ is what will get the large sector of procrastinators , deniers , and uneducated firearms owners off their fat arses and actually start doing something and hopefully start making some noise about the stupid new laws .
Finally it has started to dawn on average guy .

Mate absolutely spot on.

Originally Posted by Woody

Fish and Game sent emails to licence holders last week asking for input. I have spoken to a F&G rep today and they are in process of forming a full submission. Believe me, F&G are very much on our side and deserve all our support.

really -bloody funny theres no sign of one in my inbox and i check this unit x5daily.lets also not forget F&G also were a supporter of the initial action.
GC-Id also be bloody careful in casting aspersions re firearms owners!you may find it recoils to bite you on the arse!if you want colfo's donations to keep coming in id suggest a little less of the derogatory

Well. They have challenged Minster Nash to clarify and if he does not, then Judicial Review will follow.

Originally Posted by Lukeduncan

Attachment 122131

and here is COLFO's reply

Dear Supporter,

Is steel shot now outlawed? Our lawyers respond to Fish & Game statement.

This afternoon Fish & Game posted a public statement responding to my email to supporters this morning – specifically rejecting our claim that steel shot is now deemed "enhanced penetration ammunition" and therefore possession of such could result in conviction and up to two years in prison.

Fish & Game claim that we (and the ACT Party’s David Seymour) are wrong in our interpretation.

We have asked our Wellington legal experts, Franks Ogilvie, to comment on the matter. They said:

“Fish & Game’s response is surprising. We wish the law was what Fish & Game claim, but it simply isn’t. It appears they have not bothered to read our letter to Police Minister Stuart Nash or sought their own legal advice. We’ve asked the Minister to change the law so that it is along the lines Fish & Game state – indeed what they say is simply repeating what the Police claim and may now wish the Order said.

Of course, for practical purposes people can take comfort they are unlikely to be prosecuted if the Police say they won’t.

But that is not the point. The law is what Parliament passes, and the Governor-General signs. Those disciplines are fundamental to the difference between the Police determining what the law of the land is (a police state), or living under the Rule of Law.

For those interested in detail, the Order has no exclusion for shotgun ammunition. It should. There is nothing confining the prohibition to rifle bullets. There should be. There is no condition that it applies only to bullets intended to penetrate armour. That restriction too should be there. Perhaps Fish & Game are confusing our concerns with the definition of ‘Multi-projectile ammunition' in the same Order (which does specifically exclude shotgun ammunition). That exclusion does not apply to the definition of ‘enhanced penetration ammunition’. That appears to be the key error Police, and the Minister, have made.

We made it plain that the Order would not have been intended to cover shotgun cartridges. We know the Police website now says it does not. But as the law is written, it does.

The point of the alert to supporters, and to the Minister, was to pick just one example of the Police making things up as they go along. On matters where the penalty is up to two years in prison, it is reasonable to expect a much higher standard. The Minister should swallow embarrassment and fix the mistakes, not have groups like Fish & Game try to defend the indefensible with misinformation.

Our respect for Police and our liberties depend on the Police being loyal servants of the law, whatever they think of it – not rulers able to decide what they want it to say.

There has been similar Police invention over the moratorium on criminal liability for possessing the (badly defined) prohibited ammunition. Police said it expired on 30 September, but that if people reported what they have, it will continue until the ammunition is collected by Police. That is not what Regulation 28Z says. As written, from 1 October all people who hold it are liable to two years in prison. The Police can’t waive that. The Order in Council is so badly written that Police have been pretending to have powers the regulation does not give them. We raised that with the Minister only indirectly, because it is not in anyone’s interests to have the criminal liability tested before the Minister has corrected the errors.

Fish & Game should apologise, and in the interests of those they claim to represent, join in COLFO's request that the Minister correct the mistakes. That way, Fish & Game's assurances would have legal backing.”

I think it is really disappointing that Fish & Game have jumped in like this, but they are probably simply relying on the Police’s assurances, something we should all be entitled to do.

But pointing out the errors, and taking-on the Government where it has, frankly, got something badly wrong, is precisely what is needed. It is why we started this campaign and have asked people to crowdfund this effort.

Fish & Game say, that "this is a time when firearms groups should be working together for the public good". We totally agree.

Thank you for your support,

looks like another strike against fish and game to me

Possibly. It looks to me that the Exec of F&G may be making statements independently of the regional offices.

Originally Posted by kiwijames

Yes, I think the intent of the Bill is steel cored rifle projectiles (think armour piercing) but its getting mileage as there is potential, maybe, to apply this to steel shot. F&G has openly put this on their FB page but, it appears as a bit of a dig at COLFO which again has F&G appearing to be looking at the small picture again and only supporting their guys and not all LFAO.

You cannot rely on the what the police say, this is written law and will apply to you if its wrong, but works in their favour!! Consultation with the firearm fraternity would have helped in draughting these new laws no end!
Read into it they want it their way and fuck you!!

If its written in law it is the law

Whether the police choose to pursue it a completely different matter

You would still be breaking the law, just like with the old E-Cats by law you were the only one able to touch your rifle......

To touch someone elses E-Cat it needed to be changed into your name before you did...completely stupid...but the law is the law...

Its all well and good for Fish&Game to say they've been assured by police steel shot is ok but the way the law is written there's no clear exemption and whats to say down the track the police wont change their mind and decide steel is prohibited.