Thread: Proposed banning of lead shot in sub gauge shotguns report from Southland

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The writing style of kotuku is nothing like that of kWB or Tube. But I must say that the majority of what KWB has said is quite valid.

1. You asked for submissions which by what you have posted you have ignored if they don't fit what you want.
2. The statistics that you posted show that the %of shooters using the sub gauges is really insignificant. We should now be looking at 5% of 7.5% of birds currently affected, if 12 gauge shooters are using steel and the sub gauges effect is analysed.
3. What is obvious is that you predetermined the outcome. This is not due process and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourselves for not following due process.
4. If you want the people you are supposed to be representing to submit responses to back your view then you need to educate them and provide proof.
5. The change that you have made is against previous reassurances that have been given to hunters.

These points you have not addressed in the slightest.

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

Originally Posted by Mike H

On the subject of steel R93 I can honestly say I have no problem with it. I use a wad wizard choke which I believe helps and am a reasonable shot I feel which helps also.

What isn't known amongst the people on either forum is that like several of my fellow councillors I have access to a 20 gauge(my wife's). I took it out on the Sunday of opening weekend last year and using 3" 1 1/8 ounce of lead fives didn't find it killed ducks any better than the Remington 3" 1 1/4 ounce of steel 3s I was using the day before.

I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors.

Some of us on the council shoot ducks in paddocks with lead. We get a similar ratio of wounded ducks with that. It is not the be all and end all magic bullet. Some people have had such a bad experience from when the first cheap shitty loads of steel came into the country that they've forgotten we wounded ducks before that with lead IMO.

Fuck it, I will say it, I am, when seasoned, well above reasonable with a shotgun. However since going too steel I have had too fire so many more follow up shots than I have had too, with lead. This is also evident in my birds in hand to shots fired ratio.
I fired on average another 15-20 rounds to get my limits on opening compared to years previous using lead. I always take the same amount of ammo when I go out, and for interest sake count whats left compared to whats shot. I get sick of seeing a ball of feathers and the fuckers struggling away. I have an decent clay machine and practice with steel loads. I break the same amount of targets I would expect with lead.
I do agree lead is not magic, but it is way more effective in my experience.
I must get one of these magic chokes? A restriction in the muzzle that will make my steel shot more effective as it leaves the wad?

Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System

Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however

Originally Posted by Mike H

Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System

Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however

I think you will find that a decent shot string is relied upon more than most people realise to hit flying targets. Some of the best shotgunners in the world use it to great effect.

Originally Posted by Mike H

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

From what I have seen around here I would say they are likely fairly accurate.

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

Maybe just that they have not been convinced with the information they have received? Should something like the treaty of Waitangi be considered invalid if anyone who signed it did not also write their reasons for doing so? I do see your point though, you are looking for reasoning not postal votes.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

But without hunters they are not game. Geese are by all means game and hunted, even if they are on a different schedule now.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

But your national body has.


Note: I'm fairly new to game bird hunting and have not known anything other than steel. As such I am happy enough with it and know reasonably well it's and my limitations; too much Scottish blood and respect for the game for low percentage shots.

I have not seen your research but would be very interested in seeing it. Gut feeling is that if lead was responsible for low bird numbers then going by the period 12 gauge non toxic shot has been used and the life expectancy of the quarry that there should be a noticeable increase in population happening by. If this is not the case then the deaths due to lead as a toxin is likely insignificant. This would indicate that more research is needed to find out what the significant factors are.

Another point I'm interested in is the build up of shot in the environment that the ducks access. Just reasoning here, as I'm no expert, but these dabbling areas where the birds collect grit I would presume would tend to have more of a flow rather than slower/still water with a muddy bottom. The agitation provided by the flowing water I would have thought likely to cause the lead shot to drop through the stones, and the stuff that falls on a muddy bottom would tend to sink through the mud naturally anyway.

Originally Posted by Mike H

KWB, I see you've joined another forum on which to talk your dribble. As said previously to you, if you've got some evidence to the contrary of all the F & G research as well as the overseas based research by all means send it through to our staff down here. I note you didn't in your submission.

Apologies to you guys who are against this decision but I must remind you our role as Councillor's is to manage the sport and ensure there is a resource for the future. To allow lead to continue to be deposited when there is an alternative that 96% of the population are happy to use is not able to be justified. And before anyone mentions wounding rates of steel it is not about that. If you think it is and want to refer to the humane society article on it I suggest you read the section where wounding rates on geese were higher with lead than with steel.

I know I've been as open about this as possible by putting up our meeting minutes the moment this came on the agenda, posting up the advert for submissions, ringing up people who put their name to the submission we received and finally putting the original post here up. I know its not going to gain me votes but I'm here to do the best I can for the sport. I'm not sure the lead users are as passionate as I or the others who have changed our ways to use steel successfully.

evidence thats a laugh coming from your neck of the woods mr4%

Originally Posted by Mike H

If someone can explain to me how to upload a document I can put up the paper from when the initial research was done. I can't find it on a website to put up a link.

R93, chill bro. People may care but they are hypocritical and ignorant to the facts if they think its okay to feed lead to ducks. We have dabbling water everywhere in this country. Ducks need it to gather and seive grit. They don't get it from paddocks.

I'm not an expert just because I'm on the Council. We have staff that are who present the info to us. Because you don't attend meetings and hear and see it your unfortunately not privy to it all. We make our decisions based off of that.

Have you ever read any of the available material when you say you've seen no evidence?

hardcase when feeding leads shot to ducks was exactly what the aw researcher did
but dont reality ruin your overemotive arguement

Originally Posted by Mike H

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

but all the people supporting your position are a 100% above reproach huh

mike ,in a similar vein to when JC was presented before Herod for judgement,I sense one of the thoughts going through your head is"this aint lookin too flash bro"".

Originally Posted by Mike H

Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube

I stand corrected. I can see my good mates writing coming through.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

evidence thats a laugh coming from your neck of the woods mr4%

Shooters wound ducks, not the shot itself. Shooters wounded ducks with lead also. If your wounding more now your doing something wrong. This can be changed, its up to the shooter.

Regardless of shooter technique, lead poisons the ducks that ingest it through picking it up as grit. Shooters can't change this.

If you can put up the evidence to the contrary please do because as yet no one has put any up just as no one did this in their submissions.

How many ducks were found poisoned by lead?

Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced?

Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.

Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced?

Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.

Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.

Likewise I have not seen you post anything showing current NZ duck mortality rates due to lead poisoning. And by that I don't mean some hand waving summary. I mean a proper study with methods, analysis, results, etc.

Gadgetman, there is no need to. You and others on here know this was done by F & G in the late 90's when the issue was first raised by the anti-duck hunting lobby. If you think this wasn't the case then do as I suggested to Toby and convince the minister we should be the first country in the world to bring lead back. Show the minister how our mallards are so different to every other mallard in the world.

I take it you'll be soon lobbying the CSI region with your evidence as you'll recall from the first post that they supported us when we put it out for discussion when there was no mention of an exemption for juniors?

Some on here are a bit like the smokers who fought against banning smoking in the workplace or pubs because they didn't believe it could affect non smokers.......