Thread: 3 shot groups are useless!

Originally Posted by gimp

This is well presented, interesting, and substantially more relevant than yet another post about dead deer

He s got the flash toys and plenty of ammo.He should be able to shoot lots of squares.lols

Ultimately I am beginning to believe that if we have a better understanding of the limitations of what we do, if we do it differently, it will result in less shots on paper doing things that are meaningless

I think thats what a few of us might have been arguing.

I think your limitations are very low gimp.You should shoot 20 shot groups and waste more ammo.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Has anyone ever accused you of being fun at a party Gimp?

All bets are off once the latex suit and ball gag come out

Originally Posted by Tentman

OK, how about this scenario that isn't that unlikely . . . .

So old mate has a rifle that will do a three shot group, then heats up or otherwise goes to pot. A deer pops out at a comfortable 180M. But it's moving quite a bit. Finally it pauses but only the head is visible. Old mate confidently takes a high neck/head shot - WTF - he's not seen a wee puff of wind, or was a bit over confident and the shot has drifted a bit and the deer is running with its jaw blown off. Reload, quick shot on the run, miss then repeat miss. Now we are up to three shots, deer runs into a gully then comes out again running at 320M. It pauses but another hurried miss. Damm, down to the last round in the mag, hot barrel and difficult shot at 350M. At this point I'd prefer if my rifle would shoot a decent 5 or 10 shot group

Fair but a lot of rifles on the market with thin barrels are never going to do that so make sure you run a chunkier barrel and shoot 5-10 shot groups and your safe in your scenario old mate probably shouldn’t have taken the head shot that far

Very easier to practice head shots(tight groups)=deer head at the range 200-250yds with a good rest.Practice shooting at a few rocks out on the hills.Totally different resting yr rilfe on a pack or shooting sticks while you are kneeling or standing,lying down on a hill side.Its not the groups you can shoot,its the different shooting positions you gota practice at and be comfortable with.Then try and hit a 4 inch rock=deer head at 200-250yds on a hill side.

Originally Posted by dannyb

All bets are off once the latex suit and ball gag come out

Thats not fun.... Its terrifying!

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Thats not fun.... Its terrifying!

I wouldnt want to see Pete in a latex suit,omg.

Originally Posted by Trout

Very easier to practice head shots(tight groups)=deer head at the range 200-250yds with a good rest.Practice shooting at a few rocks out on the hills.Totally different resting yr rilfe on a pack or shooting sticks while you are kneeling or standing,lying down on a hill side.Its not the groups you can shoot,its the different shooting positions you gota practice at and be comfortable with.Then try and hit a 4 inch rock=deer head at 200-250yds on a hill side.

Do you go for headshots at those ranges Trout? While I used to shoot magpie and hares in a similar vein too your rock shooting. I pretty much almost always "chickened out" of headshots and went for the shoulder. Or base of neck if needed

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Do you go for headshots at those ranges Trout? While I used to shoot magpie and hares in a similar vein too your rock shooting. I pretty much almost always "chickened out" of headshots and went for the shoulder. Or base of neck if needed

Do about 3 or 4 lower neck shots per yr only inside about 100-200yds,mostly sholder shots,problem solved.Dont bother with head shots,deer skulls are only a small boney structure.Very easy to fk up yr shot and leave a deer running wounded.99% of my deer are shot off the bonnect of my truck like my shooting at the range.So im well practice with my shooting position.All deer are shot on open flat country that iv been on for the last 10yrs.Cant wait to till spring.

the old DOC shoot was 4 stages 5 rounds each stage at 100 yards - one lying ( elbows only ) one kneeling one standing all shot in ones own time - and one run 5 yards load and shoot in I think it was 10 seconds - to practice for it I used to just practice standing and the run and load - that was the hardest to master well - but I dont bother with head shots over 100 m - despite the fact that my .222 and 308 are likely capable out to 200 - seldom have time for a decent rest

Originally Posted by whanahuia

I think thats what a few of us might have been arguing.

I think the difference is in what we consider the limitations to be, and what we consider wasting time/ammo.


I consider that 3 or even 5 shot groups taken in isolation don't tell us enough to be meaningful IF we want to make an accurate statement about our rifle system's performance, IF we wish to understand the effects of "load development" OR if we wish to have higher confidence in hitting things consistently at longer ranges, and it's much more efficient and wastes less time/ammo to just shoot enough shots to gather enough data to be better informed. If our interest is limited to shooting deer at a couple of hundred metres, these discussions are probably not the right ones to get involved in, as it is explicitly not about that subject.


My suggested approach is to do less fiddling with things that don't give us any real evidence - just get a good amount of data and go use it. 3-shot seating depth tests, 3-shot powder charge tests, 3-shot zero then trying to shoot long range and "true" BC or muzzle velocity - all are more likely a waste of ammo and time.

Note that also "gathering data from more shots" doesn't mean you have to go fire 10 rounds back-to-back if you're worried your rifle will "walk" or "open up" with that. Shoot 10 individual shots with complete cooling in between. Actually record where they fall and plot those relative to each other.

There are a series of good questions that arise from this thread that those who have an interest in gaining a clearer understanding of the technical aspects could empirically test with data for themselves, and the wider benefit of the community. Some of these that come to mind are:


- How consistent is the POI of a "cold bore" (fouled or clean) shot, and does a meaningful sample of these look any different from the dispersion of the same number of shots from warm barrels?

- Does barrel heat actually change the dispersion of your rifle system? Or is it simply that a larger number of shots gives a more true picture of the true dispersion?

- What is the actual precision capability of your rifle system? How well do groups of various sizes represent that?

- What is the actual velocity, and velocity variation of your rifle system?

- How well zeroed actually is your rifle?


I don't mind shooting a few rounds at the range to help build the knowledge of the community and I don't consider it a waste



I have spent enough time around shooters in situations like LR target shooting days to observe that the average shooter's self-assessment of their ability to hit things at longer ranges consistently is usually not based on much evidence, and is much higher than reality. Aside from shooter proficiency effects and junk gear, the next biggest issues are poor zero and poor data.

You are a reloading scientist gimp,well done.Im not,just a cold bore shooter.I just know hornady ammo,velocitys,drops and what my rifle can do out to 400yds.Its the repeatabilty iv had for the last 20yrs that helps me drop deer.

Sounds like a new hot opportunity for a new gizmo to market, an adjustable, portable and consistent barrel pre-heater, no more need for the first five shots in a ten-shot group.