Thread: 303 bullets tumbling

Originally Posted by Jhon

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

Your bore is significantly oversized which is creating the tumbling.
Your only
Option would be to use oversized cast lead pills.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
That projectile is really sideways. Mk VII projectiles had a reputation for tumbling after impact but were not supposed to tumble through the air. Similar things were said about the early M16 projectiles but once again they were not supposed to tumble through the air. Reports of the latter are where someone has got things confused.
I believe that your rifle is a No1 Mk III. I have a Lithgow No1 Mk III* that was made in 1943. No1 rifles were not marked that way and neither was the No 3 (usually called a Pattern 14). People get the No and Mk numbers jumbled up quite often. Australia only made No 1 rifles and all No 3 rifles were made in the US.
Most military rifles have a two stage trigger with a heavy first stage and an even heavier second firing stage. You do get used to this and it is important not to snatch (or pull quickly) the trigger as this will result in wide shots. You won't notice the latter with the pills going sideways. The Greek pills seem rather hard to me and I wondered if they were under size but measurement showed they were not at least mine were not.
Regard Grandpamac.

Yes, from doing a bit of research, your right, this is a No1, MK3, I got mixed up with the numbers too, still not sure what the difference is between a no1, no2, or no3, I always thought that a no3 was the same thing as a mk3.

What is the idea with the 2 stage trigger? From how i find this gun, it has quite a bit of travel and then stops, and takes quite a bit more pressure to actually fire the gun.

Ive also had someone look at it from the store and says the barrel is stuffed, he showed me how to check and put a 303 round in through the muzzle end, it dropped right in, he said it should have stopped about 3/4 the way in, which means its worn out.

now I need to find another barrel. Where do i find a spare one? I believe there was lots of surplus lithgow parts that alot have been used into making new guns, but with serial numbers that dont match up.

Originally Posted by Jhon

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

OK, I will be careful with the stuff, I guess there is no harm in putting some rounds through this old barrel anyway.
Is all CAC corrosive?
They made the stuff right through the 70s in NZ, the stuff ive got is from the 1940s and 1950s. Im assuming their later ammo had non-corrosive primers? Im not sure when they stopped using cordite either.
Im not sure how to tell if its British CAC or NZ made CAC, as it doesnt have any markings to identify, only the year.

Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?

Looks like suitable projectiles are not easy to find and no longer made, everything is all boat tail which is harder on these barrels.

Shame no one can manufacture the stuff again to this quality, I wonder what happened to all the old CAC tooling? Someone someday may have an incentive to make better projectiles again?

Originally Posted by akaroa1

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

If I sized and gas checked these prior to powder coating they would come to around .316 as another worn bore last ditch option

I have a 1943 No4mk1.303 longbranch (canadian manufacture) .2 land.groove barrel which absolutely bloody hated 150 gn loads ,sprayed them like a bull elephant with the shits .

I found the best round for sheer thump !was 180gn round nose lead slug .sheeit when that hit its like a 105 howitzer round
I got very lucky actually for a bloke at deerstalker shoot told me -they hate boat tail slugs ,If you use 150gn make sure its flat base .
Gundoc also shortened the barrel on this for me(in your Brisbane st shop days.) and was an absolute mine of information on the quirks of mr .303
This one I bought from Tisdsalls in Cashel mall CHCH many moons ago,,It having been traded in by a competitive target shooter I was told .barrel is in good nick still altho I havent trundled one up the spout for some time!

Just an other wee tip too.if you do come across reasonable CAC mk7ammo do a very very thorough visual check .Should you see a very shiny narrow ring just in front of the case head -get rid of the round !!!!
.Fire it and Ill almost bet both my you know whats youll get case separation .open bolt head and primer fly out case remains insitu. Im reliably informed old brass get brittle with age.Ive got some CAC mk7 in stock(YES CHECKED) ,if and when i do fire it the barrel will get the boiling water vinegar soak ,followed by patches quantity ,then a tender coat of gun oil.

Quote "Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?" EndQuote

The Military CAC is Berdan primed. Two primer flash holes not the single Boxer hole. Boxer primed is not corrosive to my knowledge - someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Yes you can reload Berdan primed brass or even convert to Boxer. Google is your friend if you want to follow that path.

I've always assumed Berdan primed CAC FMJ cartridges have corrosive primers and Boxer primed CAC sporting ammunition does not. Beware of Berdan primed Military cartridges that have had the original FMJ projectile pulled and replaced with a soft point one and even the cordite replaced with smokeless powder. Will still likely be corrosive. They are corrosive because THE PRIMER is the corrosive element.

Rebuilding the round with a new projectile and smokeless powder was a common practice. Unfortunately, in my experience, a good percentage of them fail to fire because of the old primer.

If you do elect to remake Berdan primed brass, or reload circa1950s era Boxer primed brass, be sure to anneal it first. I learned the hard way that you can seat a projectile and 2-3 days later the neck will split.

Old CAC Boxer primed brass is fine if annealed.

Speaking of tumbling bullets, one of my Long Toms the bore is so worn, a mk7 bullet drops down the barrel barely touching the sides

Quote: " What is the idea with the 2 stage trigger? From how i find this gun, it has quite a bit of travel and then stops, and takes quite a bit more pressure to actually fire the gun." UnQuote

It's a battle rifle. Idea is that raw recruits are not to be trusted with a hair or single stage trigger. To fire a 303B you have to be deliberate. Take up the slack in the first stage, then squeeze to fire. As above you do get used to it. I have a couple where the trigger on the second stage is actually very smooth. Heavy, but smooth. I suspect someone else did some work on them.

Originally Posted by Jhon

Quote "Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?" EndQuote

The Military CAC is Berdan primed. Two primer flash holes not the single Boxer hole. Boxer primed is not corrosive to my knowledge - someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Yes you can reload Berdan primed brass or even convert to Boxer. Google is your friend if you want to follow that path.

I've always assumed Berdan primed CAC FMJ cartridges have corrosive primers and Boxer primed CAC sporting ammunition does not. Beware of Berdan primed Military cartridges that have had the original FMJ projectile pulled and replaced with a soft point one and even the cordite replaced with smokeless powder. Will still likely be corrosive. They are corrosive because THE PRIMER is the corrosive element.

Rebuilding the round with a new projectile and smokeless powder was a common practice. Unfortunately, in my experience, a good percentage of them fail to fire because of the old primer.

If you do elect to remake Berdan primed brass, or reload circa1950s era Boxer primed brass, be sure to anneal it first. I learned the hard way that you can seat a projectile and 2-3 days later the neck will split.

Old CAC Boxer primed brass is fine if annealed.

OK, thats helpful to know when I come to reloading.

Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match.

Quote: "Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match." UnQuote

Matching numbers matter if you're a collector. Otherwise so what? There's a lot of old 303s coming up for sale at ever increasing prices it seems. Good barrels are the exception. I've never rebarreled one but have kept my eye on prices. I would only do it if the rifle had really nice sporterised wood by e.g. Parker Hale or Churchill of England. Why rebarrel a military rifle that Bubba has sporterized with a wood rasp? I'd expect a quality rebarrel job to cost $800 plus by a reputable GS. Is it worth that to you? Then to get it reasonably accurate you have to set it up with correct fitting of wood and tensions at wrist, Mag plate, forend tension screw etc. Not a trivial exercise but feasible and plenty of accurizing info is available online. Just be aware that rebarreling of itself won't necessarily make the rifle an excellent shooter. Might make it adequate tho if Minute of Deer is your goal.

Originally Posted by Jhon

Quote: "Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match." UnQuote

Matching numbers matter if you're a collector. Otherwise so what? There's a lot of old 303s coming up for sale at ever increasing prices it seems. Good barrels are the exception. I've never rebarreled one but have kept my eye on prices. I would only do it if the rifle had really nice sporterised wood by e.g. Parker Hale or Churchill of England. Why rebarrel a military rifle that Bubba has sporterized with a wood rasp? I'd expect a quality rebarrel job to cost $800 plus by a reputable GS. Is it worth that to you? Then to get it reasonably accurate you have to set it up with correct fitting of wood and tensions at wrist, Mag plate, forend tension screw etc. Not a trivial exercise but feasible and plenty of accurizing info is available online. Just be aware that rebarreling of itself won't necessarily make the rifle an excellent shooter. Might make it adequate tho if Minute of Deer is your goal.

Im not worried about serial numbers matching, especially for a sporter like this.
I was just getting at the fact that there is a bunch of lithgows out there that were assembled from unmatched surplus parts.
Hopefully someone here has some barrels, i do have some contacts to call.

I didnt realise a rebarrel was so complex. I thought you could just screw out the old and screw in the new one, how does the wood affect anything?
At $800 I can buy a full wooded rifle complete with a good barrel, but I still want a sporter, so may have to shop around.

Its not the rebarrel that's complex. Its getting any Enfield 303B shooting at its best that is complex. Whether you rebarrel it or not. But of course it helps to start with a good barrel. What I was trying to get at was putting a new barrel on will not automatically thereof make the rifle a good shooter. You still have to set it up. True of any rifle but quite complex in a Enfield with two pieces of wood joined at the wrist. If you're not wedded to an Enfield, get a P14 which is a much more accurate design

You wont get a good full wood 303 for $800 these days. Lol the days of cheap surplus 303 rifles is well and truly over.
As for a stock of new barrels, you're talking about rifles and parts that were surplused in the 1950s, everything is gone. You cant just walk into a shop and get a new surplus 303 barrel. It just doesnt happen.

Greetings again @Old_School,
Welcome to the rather complicated world of .303 Lee Enfields. 50 or more years ago a .303 was a starter rifle for new hunters, often sold of as soon as a newer factory hunting rifle was purchased. As little as 5 years ago a lightly sporterised .303 with a decent barrel could be had for as little as $100.00. No more. .303 rifles are now in hot demand. Even those who have never owned or even fired one are buying and actually shooting them. Covid may have had a role in this with some stuck at home and spending too much time on the internet.
Possibly time to take stock of what you have. You have a rifle with a bore that looks decent so the first step could be trying to find a load that it will shoot. Forget factory loads for the moment. I think that you said you are a handloader so try some nice soft loads with 174 or 180 grain flat base round nose projectiles and 32 to 34 grains of AR2206H powder. You should be able to find someone in Tauranga who has any kit that you need and possibly some spare projectiles. Try cast lead. Shoot at 50 or even 25 metres to start with. If these keyhole or spray it may be time to think about the barrel. It does not have to be new or .303. A .30 calibre take out barrel rechambered for .30-40 Krag or .30-303 may be possible. I should warn you though that fiddling with old rifles is an addictive though rewarding pastime.
Regards Grandpamac.

If the rifling looks fine, but you can insert a round at the muzzle end and it fits all the way up to the case then the muzzle is certainly worn.
But...maybe the remainder of the barrel is still tight?
Push a cleaning rod through with a tight fitting patch (from the breech end).
If the pressure needed to push the rod through is firm but 'suddenly' feels loose up near the muzzle then you need to figure out what distance from the muzzle does the loose bit start.
Then cut the barrel shorter and recrown it at that point.
Might solve all your problems quite easily.
I have seen an old .303 rebarreled to .444 Marlin.
Don't think you are restricted to only finding a .303 barrel.
Lots of options, just the amount of $$ might not make sense.

If it was me (a confirmed tinkerer) I would slug the bore , that will also give an idea if the depth of engraving for the rifling. If it came out 318 or more I'd first consider 8mm projectiles cast and powder coated or paper patched. Be a bit of a wildcat but a fun project.