Thread: Acceptable group size at long range ?

Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Don't forget we are talking LR here 4-500 yards minimum

I'm not...


Now that I'm not on my iphone,

I mean let's see someone/people shoot and hit 10 .25" dots at 100 yards from field positions (bipod and rear bag, or whatever), breaking position between shots. Simulating trying to get a first round hit on a .25 MOA target in the field. If you think that's too easy then sure, have a go at 500, but if you can't hit a .25MOA target everytime in the absence of all the atmospherics etc that come into play at long range, then there's not much point in worrying about whether your rifle groups tightly enough to at longer ranges


Groups are almost irrelevant, they mean nothing about your ability to hit a target, which is the goal of shooting things.

Originally Posted by gimp

I'm not...


Now that I'm not on my iphone,

I mean let's see some shoot and hit 10 .25" dots at 100 yards from field positions, breaking position between shots. Simulating trying to get a first round hit on a .25 MOA target in the field. If you think that's too easy then sure, have a go at 500


Groups are almost irrelevant, they mean nothing about your ability to hit a target, which is the goal of shooting things.

Let's see you achieve multiple hits on your orange 1/2" stick on dots with a rifle that groups 3"

The other thing to consider is that many rifles achieve better MOA at longer range once the projectiles settle down..

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

Let's see you achieve multiple hits on your orange 1/2" stick on dots with a rifle that groups 3"

That's why I said almost irrelevant


Precision is important to a degree, but worrying about getting tight groups at long range instead of worrying about being able to hit things is getting priorities wrong

I've seen plenty of rifles that must shoot really tight groups struggle a great deal to hit things, including my own (not that my shoots particularly great groups)

If your rifle shoots 1/4 MOA, and If the center of a group is your point of your aim, and if you take the time to find a good suitable rest, then surely missing the target then becomes an elevation or windage fault?

Of course you can't expect to hit 1/4 or even 1/2 MOA under field conditions all the time! that's the reason you put the effort in to get an accurate as possible load in the 1st place..

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

The other thing to consider is that many rifles achieve better MOA at longer range once the projectiles settle down..

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Best explanation I've seen for that phenomenon is parallax error at closer range, or simple psychological effects on the shooter... not being able to see impacts/group at longer range reduces excitement/tension etc

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

If your rifle shoots 1/4 MOA, and If the center of a group is your point of your aim, and if you take the time to find a good suitable rest, then surely missing the target then becomes an elevation or windage fault?

You are entirely discounting the importance of the fundamentals of shooting.

Do explain?

We are of course assuming that if you have your rifle to a point where it is shooting very tidy groups, that you are of course aware of basic shooting fundamentals...

The ability to get in position and put a round into a realistic, practical size target ought to be considered more important than attempting to shave 7 centimeters off your theoretical "group size" at a kilometer


I don't think .25moa is a practical target size by any means I'm just trying to make a point


You have a .25moa rifle, right? It should be easy for you then.

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

Of course you can't expect to hit 1/4 or even 1/2 MOA under field conditions all the time!

Now we are getting some where

Is it if that person is doing all their shooting at 1000+ yards?

No point even getting into position in front of your practical size target if you ain't gunna hit it!

For example, If you want to shoot stuff at 500yards, the 1st thing you do is get a rifle and load that is capable of shooting stuff at 500 yards! The debate has always been about what level of MOA is required to do this, but it is obvious that a rifle that shoots 1/4 MOA will do the job better than a rifle that shoots 2MOA!

The next thing you have to do to shoot stuff at 500 yards is practice the ability to get into position and put a round in your realistic, practical size target!

If you would rather do this in reverse order you obviously don't have a taste for venison?

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

We are of course assuming that if you have your rifle to a point where it is shooting very tidy groups, that you are of course aware of basic shooting fundamentals...

Shooting groups is different to hitting things.

If you don't believe me, take your .25moa rifle and shoot 10 .25moa targets.




If you improve the mechanical accuracy of your rifle from a ".5moa" rifle to a ".25moa" rifle (ignoring the fact that most of your rounds go well inside your theoretical max group size, groups are not all the same size, individual 3-shot groups tell you next to nothing, etc), then you've changed your theoretical maximum displacement from point of aim due to dispersion by a total of about 3.5 centimeters at 1 kilometer, assuming perfect shooting. It's not real world practical to worry about it. Focus on shooting instead.

(Yes try and minimise vertical spread at long range by keeping velocities uniform but that's not what we're talking about here)

One thing I must add more importantly, if you are going to learn anything from your practice and misses while shooting or hunting, it makes things far easier to be able to discount your rifle and load from the mix!

Originally Posted by Tui4Me

For example, If you want to shoot stuff at 500yards, the 1st thing you do is get a rifle and load that is capable of shooting stuff at 500 yards! The debate has always been about what level of MOA is required to do this, but it is obvious that a rifle that shoots 1/4 MOA will do the job better than a rifle that shoots 2MOA!

The next thing you have to do to shoot stuff at 500 yards is practice the ability to get into position and put a round in your realistic, practical size target!

All I'm saying is that there is near-total focus on your "First thing", past the point of what is practically useful, and the 'second thing' is almost universally ignored.


What would you say the number of threads discussing accuracy/improving accuracy is like compared to the number of threads discussing improving the ability to hit things?


Self-assessment and honesty with yourself are key. If you shot a .25moa group, that's great. If it's not on the target, maybe you need to re-prioritise because a great group off the target is useless

[QUOTE=gimp;9733]

The ability to get in position and put a round into a realistic, practical size target ought to be considered more important than attempting to shave 7 centimeters off your theoretical "group size" at a kilometer

Yup. It is what field shooting is all about. I reckon there are too many variables. Even if someone manages to fire 10 rounds and score 10 out of 10 on .25' bulls at said range, I doubt it could be done everyday. If you can there is heaps of money and sponsorship to be won as world champion in several discipline's.