Thread: Acceptable group size at long range ?

My first clean/dirty cold bore shot is very important, Sika rarely give me another shot

Well I'm new here and after this post you can call me anything you like

Accuracy and Precision are close to my heart and I've been practicing at both for quite a while.

I have read in this post about hunting rifles capable of shooting 0.25moa consistantly, I've also heard about rifles like this from hunters but never actually seen one do it.

With regards Gimps post

Originally Posted by gimp

I would love to see a target with say, 10 .25moa squares and 1 shot through each

I would love to see someone actually do this at 100yds or 0.5moa squares at 200yds or the appropriate size square at any other yardage, either without changing position or over several days just to simulate hunting conditions, with a hunting rifle and an independant witness.

People talk about 0.25moa accuracy/precision, lets take a look at range shooting where shooters are shooting at known distances with target rifles what accuracy/precision do they achieve??? One form of target shooting where the accuracy is measured is Benchrest shooting, now this type of shooting is performed from a solid bench and rest (some say this is cheating and all bullets should go through the same hole) this eliminates variables like hold, movement from rests etc. This shooting is also performed over wind flags which give an indication of wind direction, strength and also mirage is clearly seen through the scopes they use. Now since the results from these competitions are easy to find we can see that these specially built rifles shooting one of the most accurate cartridges ever designed are capable of shooting an aggregate of around 0.200" - 0.250" sometimes smaller sometimes bigger depending on the wind conditions at the time. Now for those that don't know an aggregate consists of 5 X five shot groups at 100yds and 5 X five shot groups at 200yds giving 10 x five shot groups. The thing that I find interesting about the groups they shoot is that some are smaller than the aggregate and some are bigger........if you asked any of those competitors if they can shoot every shot inside 0.25moa the answer would be "NO", my rifle is usually capable of it but it comes back to my ability to tune the load and read the wind.

Now the thing that amuses me is that when it comes to people saying their hunting rifle is capable of shooting 0.25moa consistantly at 500yds or any distance really they can never be found at a range or competition to prove it.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the rifles are incapable of it, some maybe capable of it, but when the average field shooting position, shooters ability and rifle capability are taken into account, is it "possible" to shoot .25moa consistantly when Benchrest shooters shooting from solid benches and rests, using wind flags are not consistantly capable of doing it.

If anyone cares to prove that their rifle is capable of it then please post the pics with an independant witness......I would love to see the pics of anybodys attempt even if they don't achieve 0.25moa, just to see what a hunting rifle IS capable of................Kiwi

I had a go at Gimps challenge when I was home last with my .223 barrel on the blaser. I would have been stoked if I could have maintained .5 inch.
I fired 10 rounds at 10 aiming marks I like for 100yrds. I managed out of the 10 rounds to have 7 within .5 or better and had one flyer that was my fault but still ruins the attempt and 2 others within 1'
I had the flyer on the 4th shot and the 2 with in the inch were my last 2.
I will try and do it over a few days next time for a giggle.
It is, I think possible to achieve the challenge but to do it consistently would be epic.

A 31.75mm on target group at 457m... Yep I'd LOVE to see somebody do that. My bloody crosshair is that wide, and in reality unseen unexpected gusts WILL blow you off this theoretical hair we seem to be aiming at. Two things i get from this thread - 1 precision is about discapline and 2. accuracy is the real world application

I had myself a very sobering experience at the range today. A dude turned up with a ferrari of a rifle and made 4 smoking hot clover hole groups at 100m off a bi-pod. I'm starting to understand what the wiser heads are saying here about having realistic expectations and goals. That guy said he'd been reloading for 2 years and from the look of his setup i'd have to say he'd spent 15k +. I'll be extriemly happy if i can hit 1/2 of what He can with my T3 sporter. While i have full faith i'll get there eventually i do see i've got a long way to go yet.

I did 5 3 shot groups which stayed under .5" with mine at 100 and posted the pics in the shooting challenge thread.
This was off the bench with a good rest
During the shoot with norway I tried some of the challenges with a less than average rear rest/poor shooting position when moving into the shooting spot and it showed how easy it is to really throw your shooting off. I then sat with a proper rear rest and put 3 shots in the .5 moa black dot just to remind myself it could be done if I set myself up properly.
This was with a suppressed t3

Originally Posted by horihunter

I did 5 3 shot groups which stayed under .5" with mine at 100 and posted the pics in the shooting challenge thread.
This was off the bench with a good rest
During the shoot with norway I tried some of the challenges with a less than average rear rest/poor shooting position when moving into the shooting spot and it showed how easy it is to really throw your shooting off. I then sat with a proper rear rest and put 3 shots in the .5 moa black dot just to remind myself it could be done if I set myself up properly.
This was with a suppressed t3

Thats bloody good going HH very nice shooting. If anyone posts a witnessed .25 10 shot target I will send them a 1125ml of their choice as long as it is Glenfiddich

I appreciate your honesty R93 and Horihunter, and do know that 0.5moa is achievable with a very good factory hunting rifle, can't say that it can be done EVERY time though.

The ability to do it consistantly at 100yds is a lot easier than doing it consistantly at 300, 400, 500 or even further and without wind indicators it's even harder.

Question if the clouds are travelling left to right what is the wind doing at ground level?

To give you an idea of both accuracy and precision, the following five shot group was shot at 300yds, the 4 bullets in the one hole were shot in one condition and the hole out by itself was shot in another condition I held approx 4" right and 2" up from where I held for the first 4 shots........Kiwi

Originally Posted by Tussock

Your going to reward an effort like that with cooking whiskey?

BLASPHEMY.

I'm a bit of a Dalwinnie fan.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Your going to reward an effort like that with cooking whiskey?

Oooooh them there is fighting words!!!!!
You stick to your educated palette and a bottle of Early Times

Plenty sure no one is going to hit 10 individual 0.25 MOA targets at 100m with a 0.5 MOA group shooting rifle.....

Question if the clouds are travelling left to right what is the wind doing at ground level?

Eh? Due to a million different factors it can be doing anything at ground level. Simple meteorolgy.

Originally Posted by Tussock

+1

Actually, at ground level the wind is probably doing very little, as the shear between the wind and the earths surface creates a bit of a dead zone.

Although now Im just being a dick

It will definitely be doing less at ground level no matter what due to the earth creating a friction layer. Athough I am correct I believe I am the bigger dick for knowing that.

Originally Posted by R93

Question if the clouds are travelling left to right what is the wind doing at ground level?

Eh? Due to a million different factors it can be doing anything at ground level. Simple meteorolgy.

The reason I asked that question was someone posted that they used the cloud direction along with other things to tell what the wind was doing between him and his target.......I couldn't see the relevance of what the clouds were doing but I don't know everything...........Kiwi

True but then I may be shooting across a gully or down hill or even uphill.
If the cloud is going left to right at about 50 yds and I've got nothing to indicate what it is doing at 100 yds will the wind be travelling the same direction as it is at 50yds??

Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

True but then I may be shooting across a gully or down hill or even uphill.
If the cloud is going left to right at about 50 yds and I've got nothing to indicate what it is doing at 100 yds will the wind be travelling the same direction as it is at 50yds??

Are you taking the piss? I wouldnt care what the wind is doing at 100yrds if thats as far as I am shooting, depending what I am trying to achieve of course but generally it wouldnt bother me.
Terrain and temp and time of day will dictate direction and within a 100 yrds up hill or down hill it should be the same. Unless you are near a crest where a rotor effect can develop.
You must be taking the piss coz I was dumb enough to try and answer it.