Thread: An accuracy challenge

Originally Posted by The Claw

I agree about the practicing the fundamentals of shooting, and I certainly should practice more... Most of what I do is shooting rocks, plate, etc at longer ranges for practice. Doesn't prove that my rifle(s) is a sub MOA rifle, but what I have done during the load development with each of them gives me the confidence to say that they are sub MOA.

I think I might just put the wheels in motion to switch barrel my Barnard so I can practice more though...

The money you spend on the second barrel and fitting might as well go to the next 338 barrel....and just get used to shooting the big one so you know it inside out. You might even be surprised how long you barrel lasts if you dont shoot to many to fast
Then one you know it in and out the need to practice lots is gone...just the odd refresher LR shoot

Originally Posted by leathel

The money you spend on the second barrel and fitting might as well go to the next 338 barrel....and just get used to shooting the big one so you know it inside out. You might even be surprised how long you barrel lasts if you dont shoot to many to fast
Then one you know it in and out the need to practice lots is gone...just the odd refresher LR shoot

True, but I "need" a LR rifle thats able to be supressed... Everything other than ballistics will be the same with the switch barrel setup. Its not as though I don't fire the Lunatic (or am worried about barrel life either), I've put 150 odd rounds through it in the last year.

There are some pesky hares living near our house (well 800-900m away) and her in doors isn't that impressed with the Lunatic being shot off the deck... I knew I would regret selling my Barnard 6.5x47L...

Anyway, back to the topic now, sorry bout the sidetrack...

Some nice shooting there guys.

Here are sub moa targets from some of my 22s using hunting ammos. Stock standard rifles.

nzrimfire.com • View topic - Three .22 sharpshooters

and more from another marlin 60 - extremely accurate wee shooters. Forget the review and scroll down to sub moa targets.

nzrimfire.com • View topic - Marlin 60 DLX: Range test and pics.

This was a .308 I used to own which I went mad and sold and regret! Typically shot inside half MOA and occasionally when I played my part would do this:

Originally Posted by Mike H

This was a .308 I used to own which I went mad and sold and regret! Typically shot inside half MOA and occasionally when I played my part would do this:

That's a nice group, but how did you measure it?? The only reason I ask is that the group is obviously just over 2 bullet widths from top to bottom.........Kiwi

Originally Posted by Kiwishooter

That's a nice group, but how did you measure it?? The only reason I ask is that the group is obviously just over 2 bullet widths from top to bottom.........Kiwi

Spotting

I've been intrigued by this thread since it first appeared 3 years ago.
So far, after 7000 views and 125 replies, 5 people have posted 5x5shot groups:
Gimp
Norway
Claw
Leathel (twice)
Kiwishooter (but on 5 different targets)

No doubt it's tedious to truly compare accuracy because you do have to shoot 5x5 with each variation of ammo / technique etc. Who would do it just to escape Gimp's wet fish ?

Yesterday, I had a few things to check and wanted to set myself a new benchmark now the gun has shot about 1500 rounds and I'm getting to know it.

This was at 100m and the grid is 1cm. All metric here. I calculated a MOA is 29mm at 100m (well got it from Wikipedia actually). You'll have to take my word for it they were all shot back to back with no omissions. I didn't have a big enough sheet of paper to fit 5 targets on.

Target 1


Target 2


Target 3


Target 4


Now I have to confess I only had enough rounds left to fire a 3 shot group to finish. ..

Target 5
200m


So, of course this isn't sub 0.1 mRad shooting. Ha Ha. Most of the 5 shot groups contained several sets of 3 that would go under MOA and several under 0.5 so 3 shots is not impressive.

Measurements


This is shooting with my hunting rifle, a Sako 85 with S&B PMII 3-12 and A-Tec CTM4 suppressor in 7mm08 with Norma brass, Fed 210, AR2208 and Nosler BT 140gr. The factory ammo is also Norma with 140gr BT.

In the end, I've checked that point of impact and grouping is similar using a sandbag at the bench or prone and with a bipod and with the sling looped over the barrel instead of a swivel on the stock. It also holds zero within the limits of my shooting and is stable over 50 shots without cleaning and with new brass or cases loaded 14 times. Factory ammo has not shot quite as well as my handloads on several comparison tests. With my standard hand load its close to "MOA" which doesn't sound that exciting but is good enough for the hunting and a bit of field target shooting.

See, that's it. Everyone posts a single outstanding group and says "yeah my rifle will do that all day long".


I don't even care much about accuracy - if I can consistently hit a 1moa target then that is all that I can practically use. This is why I use standard dies, don't muck around with neck turning and all that.


Also it seems like people spend forever worrying about how their rifle shoots when it is the driver that is the problem.

I don't normally save targets as half the time I'm experimenting and theres a few loads on the same page but if you'd like Gimp I shoot a series on one target for you

I tend to agree with gimp on one point. Only too common to hear someone say they have a sub MOA rifle, and then you find out it shoots one such group every several outings, or shot one last year or so - while all the other groups tell a different story.

Personally when range testing I never go by single groups - always by best four group average. For them to count they must be readily repeatable.

I don't agree however that shooting tight groups on range is of no value. That would be wrong - range shooting in fact teaches you field accuracy. Range and competition shooting sets the standard for precision shooting in the field.

And you would be surprised how many sub MOA rifles there are of various makes and models. Its the sub MOA shooters that are harder to come by..

Originally Posted by mudgripz

I don't agree however that shooting tight groups on range is of no value. That would be wrong - range shooting in fact teaches you field accuracy. Range and competition shooting sets the standard for precision shooting in the field.

I never said it's of no value, just not the most practical.

I prefer to shoot single shots at individual 1moa squares, resetting position between shots.

It gives you a more meaningful result towards practical accuracy (ie, hitting things) than shooting a group

I dont see anyone one here saying "my rifle shoots moa all day long" on here. Trade me yea
The big question is what makes a moa rifle a 3 shot group,a collection of 3 shot groups none of which are over.or a 5 shot group or a collection of em or 5 of those 5 shot groups all in one group.
How much accuracy does one need? two loads one of em factory will shoot constantly under half moa for 3 shot groups in my completely un fiddled with factory rifle.
The loads I actually use shoot a lot worse at around a moa for 3 shots.
Good enough for me.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

I dont see anyone one here saying "my rifle shoots moa all day long" on here.

two loads one of em factory will shoot constantly under half moa for 3 shot groups in my completely un fiddled with factory rifle.

Do go on?

One is Belmont 308 win 130gr hp. use as a check if it wont shoot there is some thing wrong with me or my rifle.
The other was a 150gr boat tail inter lock touching the lands with 46gr N140 cci primer fed brass.

Now running Barnes for most(im a bush hobbit) and amax for steel and the odd longish shot. For me this was the logical solution for the ballisticly challenged 308

Ironically the Barnes close load shoots better(@100) than the amax

Plenty of sub MOA rifles out there. Many of them will shoot well with factory ammo.

I have found more often than not it a persons rest and setup that let's them down rather than their ability to shoot.

Personally I am not interested In wasting time and ammo shooting multiple series of 5 shot groups before I can claim the capability of my rifle and myself.

I sight in my rifle every few months or so at 500 yards. Shoot x2 or x3 shots to check the height. If an adjustment is required I will usually go back the next day and put a single shot in the bull to double check.

Always < 0.5 MOA, less wasted time, components, cleaning and good enough to claim the accuracy of my rifle.