Thread: Another practical shooting test for Hunters

Haha is right @ebf - I have an idea why you might have won . . . .

Originally Posted by ebf

haha, you really need to get out more ! there have been massive changes to "civilian" service rifle matches over the last 12 months. We shot against (and beat) the military teams until a about year ago when Cindy took our AR15s...

Competing at Waiouru was always fun, and a great source of brass if you picked up after the Army or Air Force teams



all over the north island : Tarata and Ahititi outside New Plymouth, venue just south of Waiouru, Tokoroa shooting complex.

Ah I see we must have met before. I was part of that 4 man team, and we only lost by the narrowest of margins, I have the scores around somewhere.. from memory we placed 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th, and you guys placed 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th, Jason winning? It was close! I was 6th I think.
I have been to the nationals for the last 3 years in a row, and the matches haven’t changed that I can see, and still key differences from the army matches. So maybe they changed back before that?

So Tentman, whats your take on those results? Were you there competing?

I shoot sitting with elbows on knees often...sitting in tussocks shooting across a gulley it is simply the fastest and most stable way to do it..sitting gets me above the vegetation,keeps the wobbly factor down ...shooting wallabies on the run is very challenging at best of times...by dropping down to sit it ups odds in my favour....using my frame pack infront of me to help support works better still If have time to get set up.

Nope - never been into service style shooting, pulling the lanyard on an M101a1 firing anti -tank was the pinnacle of my (short) military career. But I have won my share of matches in 3 position shooting with hunting rifles including Lee Enfields.

Now - back to the original proposition, how about suggesting how we might build a "better mousetrap", bearing in mind the original thrust was intended as a self test for hunters.

interesting image, how well would they get on carrying a bag around hunting vs just using their rifle sling? more importantly can these folk using these bags even use a sling?

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I shoot sitting with elbows on knees often...sitting in tussocks shooting across a gulley it is simply the fastest and most stable way to do it..sitting gets me above the vegetation,keeps the wobbly factor down ...shooting wallabies on the run is very challenging at best of times...by dropping down to sit it ups odds in my favour....using my frame pack infront of me to help support works better still If have time to get set up.

My favourite too, prone is seldom practical in Tahr country, its either too steep, or too much vegetation or other stuff to get above. I do use my daypack occasionally as a front rest (I find bipods too much of a hindrance getting round the place to make them worth carrying). The biggest learning for me in the original Rokslide tread was the use of the daypack as a gap filler between your legs and chest when sitting. I went straight out and tried it (my daypack is always "ready to go") and my Twin-needle mollyme is just the right size, I'd hope to improve my sitting groups by a significant percentage (maybe 50%) when I can apply this.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Nope - never been into service style shooting, pulling the lanyard on an M101a1 firing anti -tank was the pinnacle of my (short) military career. But I have won my share of matches in 3 position shooting with hunting rifles including Lee Enfields.

Now - back to the original proposition, how about suggesting how we might build a "better mousetrap", bearing in mind the original thrust was intended as a self test for hunters.

Must’ve been quite cool, I’ve always like firing rockets but never one of those.

As far as the test outlined in the original OP, my only point of contention was firing position 3; the pack supported kneeling. Omit that, and stick to prone, unsupported kneeling or sitting, and standing, and the three basic firing positions are covered, which is key.

(Also the point regarding not firing rounds, as shooters should’ve encouraged to do dry training, but that can’t be tested so easily)

The OPs concept of aiming for shots to fall within a specific grouping capacity is good, but by which standard do you measure? Is there a common data set that suggests what above average hunting shooters can achieve? Probably not, so it is going to be somewhat arbitrary, the suggested group size in the original OP is probably pretty close, but it’s a bit subjective until you gather some results.
As far as timings go, the original structure is good, starting with untimed shots, then introducing progressively shorter time limitations. But again, by which standards do you measure, and ask shooters to benchmark themselves against? I would lean towards being less less generous, based on the idea that you test for worst case scenario where game in the bush may not stand still for long, but that is subjective still.

As I said earlier, I wouldn’t discourage anyone from doing, but perhaps tailor it to suit individuals, ie, if you have access to longer ranges, then incorporate that into your testing. Although that is counter to the concept of a sort of universal test for hunters.
I will doing some grouping capacity data collection once the range re opens, as I’m interested to compare.

I reckon this would be an awesome challenge. Even just the rifle event.
2020 SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE - COMPETITION DYNAMICS

Originally Posted by -BW-

I have been to the nationals for the last 3 years in a row, and the matches haven’t changed that I can see, and still key differences from the army matches. So maybe they changed back before that?

I meant the introduction of "modern service" class. The belt was on offer for that class this year - before COVID put a stop to all fun... It has created an avenue for a lot more people to get involved in the same style of shooting, but without very specific firearm requirements. Anyone with a 223 hunting type rifle and 3-9 scope can now compete. It would be great to see some of the army teams join in (don't see the civy teams getting access to LMT MARS etc any-day soon), who knows, maybe one day we will be let back onto Waiouru ?

A couple of the mil guys still shooting in "classic class" with their own Enfield, P14s etc.

Originally Posted by ebf

I meant the introduction of "modern service" class. The belt was on offer for that class this year - before COVID put a stop to all fun... It has created an avenue for a lot more people to get involved in the same style of shooting, but without very specific firearm requirements. Anyone with a 223 hunting type rifle and 3-9 scope can now compete. It would be great to see some of the army teams join in (don't see the civy teams getting access to LMT MARS etc any-day soon), who knows, maybe one day we will be let back onto Waiouru ?

A couple of the mil guys still shooting in "classic class" with their own Enfield, P14s etc.

Ah yep, the rifle class change. I entered ‘modern service’ this year, hopefully it goes ahead.
The changes have definitely put an end to Army teams entering in any official capacity, but a few like myself may enter as civilians, as I did last year, if we have enough to make a team and sort of ‘represent’. But I was the only one (current serving) present last year at Rotorua even though I tried to get a few others on board.
Maybe a past & present team is possible in the future who knows.
I’m surprised NZSRA have not moved back to Waiouru, and opted to go with Rotorua again, there is no good reason that I’m aware of why the range cannot be booked for a weekend to host the nationals, other than something political and NZSRA committee reluctance to do it.

Originally Posted by -BW-

Ah yep, the rifle class change. I entered ‘modern service’ this year, hopefully it goes ahead.
The changes have definitely put an end to Army teams entering in any official capacity, but a few like myself may enter as civilians, as I did last year, if we have enough to make a team and sort of ‘represent’. But I was the only one (current serving) present last year at Rotorua even though I tried to get a few others on board.
Maybe a past & present team is possible in the future who knows.
I’m surprised NZSRA have not moved back to Waiouru, and opted to go with Rotorua again, there is no good reason that I’m aware of why the range cannot be booked for a weekend to host the nationals, other than something political and NZSRA committee reluctance to do it.

I suspect it comes from nzdf. The legislation changes mean that nzdf can't put in a team, so they get no benefit.

Something like this 2020 SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE - COMPETITION DYNAMICS

Might be of interest but it requires a lit more overhead with safety staff do again nzdf probably wont be interested. Nzdf is risk averse and the beauracracy overhead means it takes time to change.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

Something like this 2020 SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE - COMPETITION DYNAMICS

Might be of interest but it requires a lit more overhead with safety staff do again nzdf probably wont be interested. Nzdf is risk averse and the beauracracy overhead means it takes time to change.

The Competition Dynamic Matches look awesome and are a massive step up from anything run in NZ at the moment. I would love to put on an event like that and only really lack a suitable property to pull it off... well i lack a suitable property and possibly competitors who are willing to commit to paying the subsequent entry fee. I have been running hunter class, medium range (out to ~600m) and long range (out to ~1100m) rifle shooting matches for some years now. I would expect the entry fee to be a minimum of $200 per person based on a two day event - based upon ~40 competitors that looks like an income of at least $8,000 but i can tell you now a large, complex, professional event will chew through that easy.

Matches on the Defence Force training area (e.g. Waiouru) require someone in the Army to manage the zone bookings and de-conflict with any actual training going on. On top of that there is range templating to complete and get approved - this requires course design well in advance. Then we start moving into competitor safety briefings, inductions covering blinds, emergency plans, comms plans with range control, etc. You would need to put all this together and get it signed off by Range Control and all of this is massively easier if you have someone in the Army on board. Personally, i would love to offer to set an event like this but Army needs to benefit out of it as well - maybe entry fees go towards donations to NZ Fallen Heroes Trust, NZSAS Trust, No Duff, etc. And on top of that we have the course of fire available for them a day or two early to have some fun on.

Originally Posted by Gillie

The Competition Dynamic Matches look awesome and are a massive step up from anything run in NZ at the moment. I would love to put on an event like that and only really lack a suitable property to pull it off... well i lack a suitable property and possibly competitors who are willing to commit to paying the subsequent entry fee. I have been running hunter class, medium range (out to ~600m) and long range (out to ~1100m) rifle shooting matches for some years now. I would expect the entry fee to be a minimum of $200 per person based on a two day event - based upon ~40 competitors that looks like an income of at least $8,000 but i can tell you now a large, complex, professional event will chew through that easy.

Matches on the Defence Force training area (e.g. Waiouru) require someone in the Army to manage the zone bookings and de-conflict with any actual training going on. On top of that there is range templating to complete and get approved - this requires course design well in advance. Then we start moving into competitor safety briefings, inductions covering blinds, emergency plans, comms plans with range control, etc. You would need to put all this together and get it signed off by Range Control and all of this is massively easier if you have someone in the Army on board. Personally, i would love to offer to set an event like this but Army needs to benefit out of it as well - maybe entry fees go towards donations to NZ Fallen Heroes Trust, NZSAS Trust, No Duff, etc. And on top of that we have the course of fire available for them a day or two early to have some fun on.

Yep, I'm ex RNZE so understand the beauracracy of what is involved.
I've contacted taranaki long range shooters. They seem like they would be open to consider an event like this. I had the impression of them being able to be a host for an event that was already organized. To do an event of that scale would probably need an already established organization to get the resources to make it successful.

Planning, safety staff, range templates, steel targets, RSOs, referees, finance. It would be a big job. NZDA "might" be interested if there was a hunter class. I think the Wellington branch did a biathlon last year?

Nz service rifle would have the skill sets but I haven't seen much interested when I put feelers out at nationals and Auckland events.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

Yep, I'm ex RNZE so understand the beauracracy of what is involved.
I've contacted taranaki long range shooters. They seem like they would be open to consider an event like this. I had the impression of them being able to be a host for an event that was already organized. To do an event of that scale would probably need an already established organization to get the resources to make it successful.

Planning, safety staff, range templates, steel targets, RSOs, referees, finance. It would be a big job. NZDA "might" be interested if there was a hunter class. I think the Wellington branch did a biathlon last year?

Nz service rifle would have the skill sets but I haven't seen much interested when I put feelers out at nationals and Auckland events.

Yep, I help TLRS with their bigger competitions. To my knowledge they do not have access to a property big / suitable enough to run an event in the Competition Dynamics style - but TLRS and I have discussed it more than a couple of times. In my experience NZDA will not be interested - GPRE have run a hunter based heptathlon (hiking, observation, first aid, distance estimation, simple map navigation, shooting, flora/fauna ID) with a big prize table and after 5 years of running it we stopped because it simply wasn't supported. I ran a biathlon event with the Ruahine NZDA branch last year... Long Valley Station (Wellington) ran a hunter's biathlon style event a few years ago but i didn't hear about it last year. NZSRA has a skill set but their matches are fairly static...

Ah ...
So its like the Hihitahi Challenge on steroids.

We'd need to incorporate the lessons from that:
It's bloody good fun.
Not many people are confident enough of their all round skills to put them on the line in open competition. They have the ability but doubt themselves or else are just not into competitions (more likely).
A lot of people who can, would rather spend the weekend hunting.
A few people were put off, I think, by the idea of walking 10km round easy farm tracks. But 30km at Waiouru over 2 days would be an easy do for people used to mountain marathons.

A bit more service like flavour could attract more competitors. Yet detract from acceptability to both the general public and hunters.
To weight up the hunting theme, we could have say centrefire with snapshot bush hunt, running boar, deer (maybe "trophy stag amongst hinds" ) at 100 - 200m, a tahr/ chamois stage at 300-400m and a steel plate stage at 600 - 1000m. Then rimfire problems like the nearby rat, a possum in tree, running rabbit, standing hare, a 150m magpie, 200m extreme steel and so on. I'm not sure if shotgun would add to it or not. Hard for a pair to carry 3 guns.