Thread: Anyone a member of SSANZ or The NZ NSA?

+1, well put Beavis. I'm a member of the NSA simply because the have done more for firearms owners than any other. If you are trying to join or are waiting for payment info, try to re join as their website as it has been redone.

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Well that sparked a lot of comments. While some of these organisations might have a few extremists and occasionally make a not so appropriate statements, as I said, I'm terrified to think that in ten years I wont be able to go out on the farm and shoot bunnies or targets for fun... let alone shoot anything bigger. So I have to join someone who's going to help. This has really been bugging me. I hate thinking about it.

These politicians, lobby groups and the police have no right to stop people owning guns because it doesn't agree with their sensibilities.

I was just about to say we're lucky here... we're not. We're not as badly pissed on as a lot of other countries. If it ever gets as bad as the UK or Australia here I think I'll pack it in and piss off to the states or somewhere more gun friendly.

There's a chocolate fish to the winner of who can find the number of times the phrase "anti-gun extremists" appears on the NSA website

4. How big is this fish?

Originally Posted by Beavis

4. How big is this fish?

Would have to be at least 25cms if it is a chocolate snapper, unless my wife caught it, in which case it would be around 22lb. I kid you not her first ever snapper caught all by her self was 22 bloody lb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here yah go.



Print and eat.

Originally Posted by mikee

Would have to be at least 25cms if it is a chocolate snapper, unless my wife caught it, in which case it would be around 22lb. I kid you not her first ever snapper caught all by her self was 22 bloody lb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think in light of this achievement I am entitled to a 22lb chocolate fish

I have been an NSA adversary on other boards only because they keep stating that COLFO do nothing, well this is absolute BS!

COLFO's position is quite simple they have the ear of Politicians and certain Police and through these relationships they get to share their thoughts. They advised Police that changing the interpretation on thumb-hole stocks was wrong and that the legislation would not support their position. The Police had an opinion from crown law and the rest is history. COLFO This strengthened COLFO's postion because Police saw they actually knew what they were talking about. they also know that when they go to court against the Police the inside information and opportunities to to put the gun owners side of the case forward will be reduced. As such COLFO were keen to support someone having a crack at the Police but only after the the new AAB bill was passed. The reason for this is that there wasn't a whole lot in that bill that was worrying. (yes it was a compromise but the reality is that's what is sometimes necessary) They had an agreement with a third party to fund them to take the Police to court but only after the bill was passed. Instead we had Lincoln win, a victory? Perhaps. The upside was we got a lot of cheap AR's into NZ. The downside was is that the Police withdrew the existing Bill, dotted there I's and crossed there T's and foisted upon us the monstrosity we now have. One of the NSA mouth pieces is all for court challenges but the reality is that every time the Police lose they just get the Politicians to change the law to suit them, it really is a no win situation.

What COLFO offer is reasoned arguments that are supported by fact and statistics, that's what Politicians will listen to, they wont engage with the NSA because they see them as a bunch of nutters with guns; and yes that is a quote I heard first hand from an NZ First minister who must remain nameless. Legislating against firearms is really easy for politicians there's virtually no downside, so making them aware of things like how good our current laws actually are and how the balance between person freedoms and public safety are easily met without having to pander to Police desires for more power, is very powerfull.

The point I will make regarding the NSA is that the are not people who have mainstream views. Lincoln is being funded by Gun City and the chief mouth Piece for the NSA has taken the Police to Court on a number of occasions and as mentioned above when the lost they just had the law changed, the last time was in 1992 if any of you remember that debacle! I wont argue that NSA offer a compelling arguement, they tell you that they will fight them on the beaches etc etc. This makes you feel good but the simple facts are that NSA are a legal challenge organisation only and for the 3rd time this only results in new and harsher laws.

So in the end you may be wondering what has COLFO actually done, here a few things recently:

COLFO convinced Police that restrictions on magazine capacity for E cat licence holders were a waste of time. This was no easy sell as the Police Operations Exec (This is who actually makes Police Policy not just Joe Green) agreed that there would be nothing to be gained by reducing E cat licence holders to 10 rounds.

COLFO got Police to see that the hand in policy for E cat licence holders was over burdening and that as long as there was a genuine reason nothing had to be handed in. Again this is an Operations Exec decision so it is not able to be overturned on a whim.

COLFO have also made it clear and many senior Police and Politicians agree, that a pistol grip is not there for shooting from the hip but for better control of your firearm; they also agree that being in control of your firearm is a good thing.


What is still not clear is the Police position going forward. There is still the possibility they will push to ban all AR15 and AK style rifles along with any other MSSA. There are certainly enough senior Police who support this position. The influx of AR15's has only made some them even more determined. We are still not sure if all military style rifles will be made MSSA's or whether they will do as they have intimated and try and get back to the position they had prior to 2009. Thanks to Richard Lincoln's challenge we now have some fairly nasty laws to deal with and Police are holding all the cards. Your best hope is COLFO, they are the only one Police and Politicians listen to.

This is likely to be an unpopular post but the truth often is.

Herb, you well know my position on firearms orgs, so we won't go there. Even though I'm one of those "gun wielding nut cases" or what ever the pollies think we are, I do agree with the points you raise and commend COLFO for at least attempting to talk "them" round.

Where we part ways is where I believe COLFO are kidding themselves if they think logic and reasoning is going to influence their desired end game - the whole sale crack down on A cat holders being able to own semi autos. Almost 300 submissions couldn't tell those mouth breathers that this AAB is a shitty law which will generate confusion and inevitably result in a judicial review. Call me a pessimist, but I saw the thumbhole debacle as another stepping stone towards taking semi auto's off the open market. I'm not kidding myself - I know EXACTLY what the intent of the '92 amendment was, and the thumbhole stock issue and now this amendment. They do not want modern, accurate, ergonomic and effective semi auto rifles from being available to the public at large. The fact that they have struggled to come up with a way to stop the whole sale import of undesirable rifles, due to poorly thought out legislation has been a real thorn in their side. The new bill addresses that issue by giving them the ability to name what they please as an MSSA, rather than making every semi auto fall under the requirement of an E endoresment. They know that would stir up too much resistance from more main stream gun owners at the moment.

And this is where I'm getting at - you can talk to them all you want, but the end game stays the same. What would the MSR scene be like in NZ right now had no action been taken by R.Lincoln? Pretty abysmal I reckon. Mini 14's and crappy trigger rear Saiga's would be about it. I can't speak for any other service rifle club but my own, but giving A catters access to decent quality rifles to start out with seems to have drummed up more interest in the sport. No longer do you start out with a grubby SKS, then save shitloads for a budget AR on E cat, at a highly inflated price. It is a real shame it will come to an end shortly. I have made heaps of new friends and had some great times, meeting all the guys with similar tastes, coming out of the wood work.

They are slowly grinding us down, the best we can do is lodge court action where applicable to give them a punch in the nose now and then. It boils down to the fact that people want these guns, the authorities don't so conflict is bound to result.

I know we all need to work together and stick together. United we stand. Not just Colfo and the NSA etc but all shooters...hunters, target shooters, clay, pistol, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Herbmiester

I have been an NSA adversary on other boards only because they keep stating that COLFO do nothing, well this is absolute BS!

COLFO's position is quite simple they have the ear of Politicians and certain Police and through these relationships they get to share their thoughts. They advised Police that changing the interpretation on thumb-hole stocks was wrong and that the legislation would not support their position. The Police had an opinion from crown law and the rest is history. COLFO This strengthened COLFO's postion because Police saw they actually knew what they were talking about. they also know that when they go to court against the Police the inside information and opportunities to to put the gun owners side of the case forward will be reduced. As such COLFO were keen to support someone having a crack at the Police but only after the the new AAB bill was passed. The reason for this is that there wasn't a whole lot in that bill that was worrying. (yes it was a compromise but the reality is that's what is sometimes necessary) They had an agreement with a third party to fund them to take the Police to court but only after the bill was passed. Instead we had Lincoln win, a victory? Perhaps. The upside was we got a lot of cheap AR's into NZ. The downside was is that the Police withdrew the existing Bill, dotted there I's and crossed there T's and foisted upon us the monstrosity we now have. One of the NSA mouth pieces is all for court challenges but the reality is that every time the Police lose they just get the Politicians to change the law to suit them, it really is a no win situation.

What COLFO offer is reasoned arguments that are supported by fact and statistics, that's what Politicians will listen to, they wont engage with the NSA because they see them as a bunch of nutters with guns; and yes that is a quote I heard first hand from an NZ First minister who must remain nameless. Legislating against firearms is really easy for politicians there's virtually no downside, so making them aware of things like how good our current laws actually are and how the balance between person freedoms and public safety are easily met without having to pander to Police desires for more power, is very powerfull.

The point I will make regarding the NSA is that the are not people who have mainstream views. Lincoln is being funded by Gun City and the chief mouth Piece for the NSA has taken the Police to Court on a number of occasions and as mentioned above when the lost they just had the law changed, the last time was in 1992 if any of you remember that debacle! I wont argue that NSA offer a compelling arguement, they tell you that they will fight them on the beaches etc etc. This makes you feel good but the simple facts are that NSA are a legal challenge organisation only and for the 3rd time this only results in new and harsher laws.

So in the end you may be wondering what has COLFO actually done, here a few things recently:

COLFO convinced Police that restrictions on magazine capacity for E cat licence holders were a waste of time. This was no easy sell as the Police Operations Exec (This is who actually makes Police Policy not just Joe Green) agreed that there would be nothing to be gained by reducing E cat licence holders to 10 rounds.

COLFO got Police to see that the hand in policy for E cat licence holders was over burdening and that as long as there was a genuine reason nothing had to be handed in. Again this is an Operations Exec decision so it is not able to be overturned on a whim.

COLFO have also made it clear and many senior Police and Politicians agree, that a pistol grip is not there for shooting from the hip but for better control of your firearm; they also agree that being in control of your firearm is a good thing.


What is still not clear is the Police position going forward. There is still the possibility they will push to ban all AR15 and AK style rifles along with any other MSSA. There are certainly enough senior Police who support this position. The influx of AR15's has only made some them even more determined. We are still not sure if all military style rifles will be made MSSA's or whether they will do as they have intimated and try and get back to the position they had prior to 2009. Thanks to Richard Lincoln's challenge we now have some fairly nasty laws to deal with and Police are holding all the cards. Your best hope is COLFO, they are the only one Police and Politicians listen to.

This is likely to be an unpopular post but the truth often is.

You have a strange concept of the Truth,somehow you atempt to dride the NSA and at the same time tell everyone you have your hand up their back (think pupet) by somehow organising thier funding.And as for attempting to link them with the 1992 Legislation is very poor indeed.Then the new Legislation is somehow the NSA's fault because they chalenged the Police.
Then COLFO somehow have a major influence on Police policy but somehow forget to tell anyone that they have done such thing.Colfo is nothing but a group of people who have their snouts in the trouh and don't want to rock the trough in case some of it spills.A case of point was when the NZDA threatened to pull out ,then amazingly all of a sudden NZDA executive get on the train or is that in the trough.
And according to COLFO itself all they have done in the last 6 months is send some emails !!!!.

I have seen on the other forums the amount of passion in this argument.

At the time of the 2009 Thumbhole debacle I was keen to see a new organisation arise. The NZ Police had decided to change their interpretation of the pistol grip rules. But were taken to court, lost the case and then like bad sports ran away to mummy to get the law changed.

So I was pleased to see the NSA formed. There was alot of passion and people wanted a way to get their views put across to deaf and dumb politicans-who remain blind in the most case.

However I have seen Herb and others who support COLFOs style of operation get rucked and mauled and heckled on other forums and really its not good to see this happen.
I now see how COLFOs operation can be effective and I am pleased that COLFO is in the position to talk with Police and Politicians on firearm owners behalf's and I beleave they do have a positive effect in forming a form of relationship between us and the Police/Poli's and also have achieved some sound outcomes.

Part of the reason so many of us felt the NSA was needed was the lack of information us members of COLFO received from the executive. As being a member of a Pistol Club or Service Service Rifle Club we just didn't hear what was being done.
This does seemed to have changed lately and now we do get updates and see what is being done for us.

I personally felt that the NSA giving the police a fight and seeing the Police lose the high court case was a good thing in terms of showing how small and childish they were being. That they ran away to mummy Collins and cried to her was always going to happen. As is pretty clear the Police were always going to try to get semi's restricted, if not now then in 2 yrs, 4 yrs etc.
The big thing that I don't feel many people understood was that the original version of the AAB currently before parliament could have had some bolt rifles also restricted to MSSA. Luckily those who submitted against the bill were
able to stop that.

I do now see how COLFO has achieved positive results and that their style is quietly achieving and I now support them again- thanks to Herbs postings and a new publicity approach by COLFO in informing its members what is being done. Thanks Herb.

My wish would be for all firearm groups and organisations to come together sit down and move on forward together. As the more of us together and on they same side and united will make more Poli's sit up and listen. If we continue to fight each other the Police and Poli's will just love it.
To bury the hatchet and work together would be my wish for COLFO and the NSA in the new year. I see value in both these organisations.

Cheers.

Just to clear a few things up; firstly there is room for the NSA, there is nothing wrong with a good cop bad cop approach. Please excuse the pun. However on other forums I have defended COLFO as many of the NSA supporters bag them for doing nothing, I see some people realise that working behind the scenes and giving solid clear advice is not doing nothing. Yes its a less in your face approach than the NSA but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

A few points for Tanked. I never stated that the NSA were involved in any of the 1992 legislation. It is a fact that Mr Jim Henry was part of a group who took the Police to Court and won when the Police initially took their stance on MSSA's after Aromoana. What resulted from that is the 1992 ACT. This was a response by the Police and Government at the time to close the loop opened by the loss of the aforementioned court case. Does this seem similar to what we are going through right now?

Also for the record no one is getting rich at COLFO, they volunteer their time and the NZSRA rep to COLFO puts in a huge amount of personal time and effort and he is one of the reasons Service Rifle Shooting is seen by the Police as a legitimate use for MSSA's. COLFO have a fighting fund, that's what all the cash is for. If they have to hire someone like Chen Palmer to counter a crown Law opinion then you can kiss goodbye to $20-30k in a heart Beat. Imagine what it would cost if they had to hire them for a full blown court case; COLFO funds emptied!

Part of the issue with COLFO is they cant always say what they are up to as this compromises there relationship with their Police and Government contacts. This pisses many people off as they believe COLFO are sleeping with the enemy. I guess you either trust them to do their job or you don't. I will say this however these people are passionate about firearms ownership, they own pistols, MSSA's and restricted firearms so the last thing they want is to see there hard won privileges eroded.

I am as little dog has mentioned sick of the arguments over NSA vs COLFO, the fact is that effective lobby groups have for centuries altered the political landscape and they have done so mostly outside the sphere of public knowledge. If you feel better about joining the NSA then great join them, just be clear about what they can do and what influence they actually have.

When we finally understand the full ramifications of the new legislation we can then decide if one victory in court is worth giving the Police "Orders in council". Because when you look at it in the cold hard light of day that's what was traded.

I think realistically, court action is a last ditch attempt to stop an erosion of privileges. In the case of the original amendment, the COP wanted an out right ban on the import of certain rifles - no special import permits - a flat out ban, not coming in ever again. Fortunately PSI, in a similar action to NSA thumbhole case took him to court, citing "ultra vires" behavior and fortunately for us agreed and slapped the ban down. I think this was a better out come than pandering to the wants of our police force and not rocking the boat. If it wasn't for that we would probably be shooting service rifle with Mosins and Enfields almost exclusively. If that were the case I wouldn't bother making the 4 hour + return trip to my club every month or two. So I think it stands to reason that court action is better than no action at all, but I know what you mean - court action inevitably results in legislative change. Pretty catch 22 if you ask me. A shit system.

Pretty catch 22 if you ask me. A shit system.

Agreed.