Thread: Expected accuracy for unsupported positional shooting

Years back I used to go to the DOC Shoot in Wanganui and compete against other pest control people. It was a great shoot, shot at the Pistol club over 100 m. We were required to shoot 20 rounds in four positions , Prone 5 shots off elbows, Kneeling or sitting 5 shots, off hand 5 shots, and rapid fire, timed ( run to mound load magazine and off hand another 5 shots in 30 seconds)
Quite often you would only 3-4 reasonable aimed shots at target.
The targets are the two rounds I shot back in 2013 would like to think I could still do that .... maybe , maybe not.

I used my Mod 7 223 and my score was 227 out of a possible 400, best scores i have seen are in the 250- 260 class.

Probably miss if I tried it on A4 paper, but at 100yds unsupported prone, sitting cross legged and standing, my go to practice is 1 liter water bottles, always bang it through the middle, 2moa at worst. Standing I don't bother trying to hold on it, for some reason swing on to it and bang works, the reward of the tactile response of an exploding bottle is great practice for standing offhand on a runner. Can't shoot the damned paper that way for some reason, but gimmie something to blow up, I'll get it every time!

A good Question EBF !
Of course, the size of group matters only a little. The important thing is how many score well in the rings and how many connect with an animals vital spots, which doesn't move conveiently to the centre of your group !
Here are some targets where I shot better than my usual at the Taupo Big Balls:

Standing


Kneeling


Sitting


Prone


So, about 30cm standing, 8cm kneeling and 13 cm sitting and prone for me at 100m unsupported using the 7mm08.

Some people, like @Gillie and @Seventenths are just way better than others. I'm fairly average among those who like target shooting. @10ring outscores me most times but not all. They will be worth listening to on this.

Greetings Bagheera and All,
I have often thought of doing the Big Balls Taupo Shoot but have never quite got round to it. It is generally on the same weekend as the Taruarau Shoot, one Saturday and one Sunday so perhaps this year. For those not familiar with the Taruarau Shoot it is shot between the Hawkes Bay and Taihape NZDA Branches 3p with deer targets. Started about 1957.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by Bagheera

A good Question EBF !
Of course, the size of group matters only a little. The important thing is how many score well in the rings and how many connect with an animals vital spots, which doesn't move conveiently to the centre of your group !
Here are some targets where I shot better than my usual at the Taupo Big Balls:

Standing
Attachment 163511

Kneeling
Attachment 163512

Sitting
Attachment 163513

Prone
Attachment 163514

So, about 30cm standing, 8cm kneeling and 13 cm sitting and prone for me at 100m unsupported using the 7mm08.

Some people, like @Gillie and @Seventenths are just way better than others. I'm fairly average among those who like target shooting. @10ring outscores me most times but not all. They will be worth listening to on this.

Could you describe the kneeling position used please. I find sitting better than kneeling but maybe my technique is wrong ?

The 4P aren't quite enough for all hunting or field target competition but you need them as a skill base.

22 shooting is a good place to try things out. For instance i can shoot a little better cross legged sitting but its only usable on a flat mound with target horizontal from you whereas with feet apart you can shoot off uneven ground and easily adapt to use a tree as a rest. Likewise a 2 point carry sling doesnt feel like it gives much support and its not visible in the size of the group but it shows up wit just few more points over 4P x 5 shots.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Could you describe the kneeling position used please. I find sitting better than kneeling but maybe my technique is wrong ?

Greetings Moa Hunter,
In the kneeling position you sit on the heel of your kneeling leg with a rolled up towel or special cushion roll between your ankle and the ground. There is also a cradle position where the rifle is supported on your upright knee. Old Fudds like me have problems with both these positions, especially the latter so this is based on distant memory. There are some NZDA shooting rules that you should be able to find on the internet or better go along to one of your local NZDA shoots and have a look.
Regards Grandpamac.

In small bore Metallic silhouette shooting, which is all done standing unsupported, the ram is shot at 100m, it is 6.4in x 5.4in. Then you take into account even the best 22LR silhouette rifles do about 1 MOA in real life conditions, the shooter is required to do better than 4MOA consistently to compete. The Ram is easier than the turkey, which is shot at 77m and is 3.9in x 4.7in. It translates into about 3.5 MOA shooting.

I do not have a 100m place to practice but I regularly shoot at 50m. I shoot at steel oval targets that I took off a dual tree, the round part is around 7~8cm in diameter. I can make it about 70% the time on a good day about 40% on a bad day. Standing shots are very hard to be consistent. Even if you feel great one day and can do good shots consistently, you may not be able to replicate it the next day, because so many parts of your body must work in unison. I very much admire people who shoot well in Metallic silhouettes.

I can get it about 100% the time kneeling. I would say my group is less than half the size if shot kneeling than standing.

My sitting shots is slightly worse than kneeling shots just because I practice kneeling far more than I do sitting. My logic is that when I hunt, I would rather have shit/mud/water on my kneel than my bum, and kneeling gives me about 15~20cm extra height, so I almost never shoot sitting. For most people, sitting provides support for both elbows where as kneeling just one elbow, so sitting should be more accurate.

I only recently got back into shooting prone again, only because it is good fun, but otherwise I find it having little practical application for me. when you shoot prone, it is not about grouping anymore, it is about how often you hit the bulls eye. basically if no fuck ups, you should hit bullseye, if any minor fuck up, you dont.

I recommend people watch 2012 London Olympics man's 50m prone shooting. The Belarus competitor, Martinov, not only shot a perfect 60 out 60 10s in qualifying, but also shot an impossible 105.5 score (out of a maximum possible of 109, since each shot will award 10.9 if hit absolutely centre) for the 10 final shots. All that, using an old Annie and Soviet era Russian bullets (but with shooting jacket and sling support).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB3PBaNXfAM

Using @Bagheera example above on the NZDA 100m metric targets. For a 20 shot match (out of 200) i normally shoot about a score about 160 with just me and the rifle (no support, no sling).

This is a typical target of mine with no specific practice for this event. This was a practice 40 shot match (10 prone, 10 sitting, 10 kneeling, and 10 standing).
With practice at this match I can significantly increase my score - my personal best was a 20 shot practice target that scored at 181.





Moa Hunter - my kneeling position. I accept not everyone can sit on their foot like this and so many people use a rolled up bit of foam (or something similar) under their ankle. Normally my sitting position is considerably better than my kneeling.


@ebf To answer your question directly:
Unsupported prone is not my strong point so at 100m i average about a 3" group.
Unsupported sitting I also average a 3" group.
Unsupported kneeling i can keep most in a 4" group with the occasional flier that'll blow the group out to 8".
unsupported standing i am keeping everything inside that 8" group.
With the NZDA 100m Metric target above my match goal is to keep my average at an 8 or better and everything (including my fliers) inside the 5 ring.

Here's some notes on kneeling:

Kneeling position is very much like standing but the left elbow is supported.
Left lower leg vertical and toe turned slightly in. Left arm upper and lower both at 45 deg to vertical, same as standing (shoulder, elbow and wrist in one vertical plane).
Left elbow triceps tendon flat area resting in knee between patella and the medial head of quadriceps (see wikipedia for explanations anatomical terms but they are the most unambiguous way to describe positions).
Right knee on ground with leg 60 to 90 deg from direction of target.
Buttock weight is on right heel. Right foot can either take weight on toes (high position) or be the toes can be stretched out straight (in line with lower leg) with weight on the front/top of ankle and foot on the ground (low).
Right elbow in air horizontal to 45 deg below same as standing position.
Your left hand may need to be closer up the stock towards the trigger than it is in prone and sitting.

This is a diagram from an old MSC firearms manual.

It doesn't show the foot position very well.
What you can use depends a lot on what's comfortable for your foot.
This shooter seems to have very long legs and a short torso. What Woody says about depending on your build is quite right.

I would go by Gillie's picture.

In kneeling, the main problem is sided to side movement. To improve this, you will need to move your left (front) foot carefully with attention to where your Natural Point of Aim falls on the target. If its not right, shots will tend to flick off that way every now and then. Even small adjustments of your foot angle can be used for aiming.
For me, in sitting and prone its dropping away to 4 o'clock - insufficient support and the rifle arcs over the left elbow.

For the 20 shot 4P match I shoot in the 130-140 band. So, you should listen to Gillie if you want to shoot well.

Think il stand and shoot.Im not flexy enough for that.

Does anyone on here have a PDF version of the NZDA 4P target pls ?

Originally Posted by Bagheera

Here's some notes on kneeling:

Kneeling position is very much like standing but the left elbow is supported.
Left lower leg vertical and toe turned slightly in. Left arm upper and lower both at 45 deg to vertical, same as standing (shoulder, elbow and wrist in one vertical plane).
Left elbow triceps tendon flat area resting in knee between patella and the medial head of quadriceps (see wikipedia for explanations anatomical terms but they are the most unambiguous way to describe positions).
Right knee on ground with leg 60 to 90 deg from direction of target.
Buttock weight is on right heel. Right foot can either take weight on toes (high position) or be the toes can be stretched out straight (in line with lower leg) with weight on the front/top of ankle and foot on the ground (low).
Right elbow in air horizontal to 45 deg below same as standing position.
Your left hand may need to be closer up the stock towards the trigger than it is in prone and sitting.

This is a diagram from an old MSC firearms manual.
Attachment 163557
It doesn't show the foot position very well.
What you can use depends a lot on what's comfortable for your foot.
This shooter seems to have very long legs and a short torso. What Woody says about depending on your build is quite right.

I would go by Gillie's picture.

In kneeling, the main problem is sided to side movement. To improve this, you will need to move your left (front) foot carefully with attention to where your Natural Point of Aim falls on the target. If its not right, shots will tend to flick off that way every now and then. Even small adjustments of your foot angle can be used for aiming.
For me, in sitting and prone its dropping away to 4 o'clock - insufficient support and the rifle arcs over the left elbow.

For the 20 shot 4P match I shoot in the 130-140 band. So, you should listen to Gillie if you want to shoot well.

I normally stand for off hand and was in the past a very good, fast offhand shot but now getting older I am getting less solid in rifle hold and finding I need to look at other positions. I do use a mustering stick as a side brace for sitting and standing and I imagine it would work well with kneeling as well.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

I went to the NI NZDA shoot a couple of years back and the best shooter put 9 out of 10 shots into a 35mm group at 100m. The rogue shot opened the group to 60mm. This was standing.
Grandpamac.

That would've been Brenda McFetridge. She must have been having a bad day. Brenda is a member of the NZDA Hall of Fame and has been a virtually unbeatable competitor in scoped rifle 4P for the last 25 years. When watching her in the standing position her barrel movement is less than almost everyone else's in the prone position.

At a local NZDA shoot recently Brenda shot a 50/50 in .22RF standing. Slightly windy too. It's harder to shoot a top .22LR score standing than with a centrefire because of the longer time the bullet is in the barrel and if any wind is present then it can really play havoc with the slow moving .22LR bullet.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

That would've been Brenda McFetridge. She must have been having a bad day. Brenda is a member of the NZDA Hall of Fame and has been a virtually unbeatable competitor in scoped rifle 4P for the last 25 years. When watching her in the standing position her barrel movement is less than almost everyone else's in the prone position.

At a local NZDA shoot recently Brenda shot a 50/50 in .22RF standing. Slightly windy too. It's harder to shoot a top .22LR score standing than with a centrefire because of the longer time the bullet is in the barrel and if any wind is present then it can really play havoc with the slow moving .22LR bullet.

You would be right. Bit of a shock for an old Fudd used to seeing standing shots spread all over the target at best. I just went up for the day as a spectator to see what 4P looked like these days. Trying to get back into it slowly.
Grandpamac.