Thread: F-Class

Originally Posted by ebf

hahahahaha, sorry.

mate, you have no idea how difficult it is to get f-class to make inroads into the "tr" mentality. the entire NRA council is still completely TR focussed, most of the clubs are TR heavy when it comes to committee members. there are lots of elderly TR shooters still involved in managing clubs, even though they are not actively shooting. at a national level, teams and development is still very heavily focused on palma and tr...

we have only just started getting some movement at the WRA level to get f-class recognition for stuff like postal shoots, champion of champion etc. still massive discrepancies when it comes to queens badges handed out at nationals. some of the regional comps have a "final" for top 5 TR shooters, nothing for F, the list goes on (and on and on)

I built a f-class leaderboard for the NRA village after having to go begging for funds from other shooters, the NRA powers did not even want to send out an email.

bit of a touchy subject....

on a positive side we had an aus F team here for nationals this year, that has ramped up the competition level by several notches.

FTR is going through a bit of a transformation at the moment. We went to 1/2 moa super-V scoring this year. Moving away from a one-design type class (using 155 palma projectiles), different styles of bipods are maturing etc. But it is a much easier (equipment wise) and cheaper option for entry into F-class. Berger 185 projectiles are pretty common at the top level, and some of the overseas guys are going really heavy with 215s and 230s, but that requires a LOT more precise gun control. FTR is also a very good way to increase your wind skills, especially if you want to score well using 155s.

Actually I have a very good idea I was the F-Class delegate to the NRA for a few years. I shelled out several hundred dollars to sponsor the Masefield trophy (I think?, can’t remember which Steve Morris sponsored one and I the other) I spent many long hours sitting in the cold NRA executive meetings for my 2 min segment only to have it brushed under the carpet. All in all I became disillusioned with the whole thing and called it quits after spending 3 months working with a new .284 then switched back to 6.5 and chewed the throat in 200 rounds with hot RL17 loads. By the end of the Masefield my throat was toast. I pulled out of the Ballenger and went to the south Island hunting. While there I figured I had enjoyed a pretty good innings but didn't have the energy to stay at the pointy end anymore and never went back. Resigned as Delegate and vice chair to Petone.

Truth be known I should have never sold my first gun to DAF that thing just worked and my new gun never did in the McMillian stock, it was just to light.

Shooting the 155 by comparison to the 140 VLD was significant. The 155 was very much like sending my 6 year old to the fridge to get another beer. It seems without purpose and without direction but given time and patience it would complete the journey but the beer was never placed where you expected it to be. 140 VLD @ 3160fps by comparison was a slippery bastard and very predictable. But then given it inherited and additional few grains of weight from the throat of my barrel I guess that was inevitable.

You guys enjoy the sport while it lasts. If the NRA do not seize the opportunity to get behind F-Class shooting and foster the numbers in the coming years the numbers will lose its critical mass and the range will go. As the likes of these forums show there is very little interest in Target shooting in general and until it is understood why guys don't want to compete in shooting events it is near impossible to remove the barriers. F-TR is the NRA best chance to revitalize its self. Personally I would have been keen to restrict F-TR to 155's but I accept there was a good argument to open it up as well.

Good to see Graeme Cook having some luck in the sport.

@Bugger That I remember your reign and dominance and then sudden departure. Thanks for explaining the background.
@ebf The NRA attitudes to F Class starts right at the top of the organisation unfortunately. Rather than see F Class shooters as the potential to boost the organisation........

Yup, and the funny/ sad thing is that whenever it is raised, they turn around and say "well, you need to sort yourselves out, f class is like herding cats"...

The fundamental problem is not having any councillors or exec members that are f-class shooters. Having a non voting delegate is a waste, as had been demonstrated quite clearly.

Unfortunately I think the reality is that NRA style target shooting in NZ is in its death throes. The numbers simply have gone beyond where it is sustainable. Younger guys today want to do service rifle or IPSC pistol, fullbore has no "cool" factor. There is a huge pool of potential shooters amongst the deerstalkers, but because of NRA attitudes, those guys are much more likely to find a home in a prescision rifle series or something like what Gillie is running.

Practical field shooting is far more interesting to me than F-class, I was going to shoot the Gunslinger in February before it was cancelled, then of course it was re-scheduled during a work trip. Will make it up for one of Gillie's shoots one day as soon as I can hopefully. I'd shoot F-class just for the hell of it with my hunting rifle (fuck the game guns) if it was remotely accessible on the West Coast but it isn't, and it also wasn't in Dunedin

Originally Posted by ebf

Yup, and the funny/ sad thing is that whenever it is raised, they turn around and say "well, you need to sort yourselves out, f class is like herding cats"...

It’s actually much like this forum environment. Whenever I went to the shooters for their opinion to take back to the NRA we would all end up talking in circles? It was hellishly frustrating. I remember well at the end of the F-Class Nationals drawing equal with ??? (I was going to say Kevin but that was a Ballenger) There was no official ruling as to how to work out the winner. As the delegate at the time I wanted to put in place an agreement as how we would sort it out. All I got was 20 odd guys looking at their feet. In the end Graeme made the call on count back. Anyway a few weeks later I get rumors of bitching. As far as I was concerned they had there opportunity and missed it. Back then a number of shooters wanted their own target and I was for that as well. I wanted to avoid any more draws. But there was no way in hell we were going to get that. The move to the targets you have now I assume is for the better?

Gimp as I see it the real advantage of a practical match is that there is no real fixed infrastructure. NRA shooting will most likely disappear with time. If regions cannot acquire the land or the infrastructure to shoot they fail as has happened here in Taranaki. As the regions dry up this has a flow on effect in Trentham. I see the club fees are $265.00?? Or some rather large number like that. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out what is happening there. That fee will drive even more away and so on.

Your practical matches are a better model and more sustainable. The only down side I see is that I assume a great deal of the setup cost and energy to keep it going most likely sits with just 1 or maybe a very small number of guys. With that in mind the matches are dependent on their interest in keeping it going. Anybody who shoots at these matches would be wise to pass on their appreciation to those individuals and where possible make every effort to help.

Originally Posted by Bugger That

The move to the targets you have now I assume is for the better?

yup, very good move imho, we (informally) shot 1/2 moa super-V at last year's hamilton F event, and it showed a massive difference between those that had some overseas competition experience and the rest. most guys have adapted pretty quickly, and it is funny watching the TR guys trying harder to up their X count as well at least now we are shooting at the same size targets as the rest of the world, so better for top-level, but harder for the weekend warrior, so bit of a double-edged sword.

we have also started making some F inroads into 300m. FTR was allowed last year, and at the start of May this year we had the first 2 FO guys competing. competitor numbers were pretty much evenly split between F (FO & FTR), ISSF and Open.

Originally Posted by Bugger That

I see the club fees are $265.00?? Or some rather large number like that. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out what is happening there. That fee will drive even more away and so on.

And rising, already quite a bit more than IPSC for example once you add match fees etc...

As EBF says the entire NRA is old (and some I think are a bit senile) and TR only fanatics. In fact some even said that they didnt want ppl who thought they were snipers anywhere near "their range" (hence why I wonder about the sanity of some of them). However I spent 2 years pointing out that FTR ppl was on the increase, and that we needed members or we are poked, I think I got a wee bit of traction on one or two ppl. As an example I think NRA has about 250 members nationwide, you cant run a functional organisation on that number.

If you want a competitive FTR its a specialist gun, so $1700 for a single shot Barnard P action, about $1k for a Kreiger 30inch SS match barrel, about $1k for a good enough stock and bipod and $1500 for a good enough scope so you are up around $5k. F-open, similar setup except instead of a barrel per 4 years 1 or more per year...ie 4000 rounds v 750.

I tend to agree that statistically the NRA is dead, especially as I think they dont seem to want recover, just keep the game going until they are all too old. Hence why I have been taking an interest in 223 and the WSRA. There is supposed to be a 600yd rnage coming soon, if its a goer I might just drop Trentham its going to get ugly so I want to be well away if so.

What I do is shoot 303brit for short ranges (<=600yds) and I will go back to FTR for >=800 next season, my eyesight is now just not up to TR.

$265 last year, I dont know what its going to be this year, we'll find out in July. On top of that though in effect its $50 for each weekend, many ppl are saying no to that.

Originally Posted by steven

As EBF says the entire NRA is old (and some I think are a bit senile) and TR only fanatics. In fact some even said that they didnt want ppl who thought they were snipers anywhere near "their range" (hence why I wonder about the sanity of some of them). However I spent 2 years pointing out that FTR ppl was on the increase, and that we needed members or we are poked, I think I got a wee bit of traction on one or two ppl. As an example I think NRA has about 250 members nationwide, you cant run a functional organisation on that number.

If you want a competitive FTR its a specialist gun, so $1700 for a single shot Barnard P action, about $1k for a Kreiger 30inch SS match barrel, about $1k for a good enough stock and bipod and $1500 for a good enough scope so you are up around $5k. F-open, similar setup except instead of a barrel per 4 years 1 or more per year...ie 4000 rounds v 750.

I tend to agree that statistically the NRA is dead, especially as I think they dont seem to want recover, just keep the game going until they are all too old. Hence why I have been taking an interest in 223 and the WSRA. There is supposed to be a 600yd rnage coming soon, if its a goer I might just drop Trentham its going to get ugly so I want to be well away if so.

What I do is shoot 303brit for short ranges (<=600yds) and I will go back to FTR for >=800 next season, my eyesight is now just not up to TR.

In the beginning of FTR I was disappointed that they (F-class members) Allowed the wording of the founding document effectively allow a full blown F-Class rifle chambered in 308. From its concept it was only intended for and TR rifle fitted with a scope and front rest. I was a bit pissed off about it so decided to chamber my F-Class rifle in 308 and shoot F-TR with the intention of demonstrating how such a setup could dominate the class. In reality I never got my head around the almost double windage factor and failed miserably. To this day 308's do my head in.

Originally Posted by jakesae101

Not that i need another disipline of shooting ebf but how much is someone looking at to get set up? I have what im fairly sure was built as a target rifle many many years ago in a long range wildcat that im keen to stretch the legs out on

Set up cost can vary.
I bought a Savage Model 12 .223 1:7 twist for my son to begin with in FTR, off the shelf with 2nd hand scope and bipod + reloading gear about $3200 to begin to compete. A great learning rifle for him (and now me) to learn with.

We're now assembling another rifle around a Barnard action in 308.

Bugger That, you seem to use the term "F Class" to refer to FO. That might have been the case in the past, as some in the NRA still seem to do this. With the move to 6.1 scoring, we have hopefully broken the ubmilical to TR and positioned more as a "real" F class sub-division. Most of the resistance to FTR going 6.10 came from TR shooters

Those of us shooting currently see F-Class as having two equal divisions, FTR and FO.

The 308s we are shooting are a world apart from 1:14 144grainers. The Lapua Scenar 155 and HBC Dyer Mk2 are both pretty good, and for that extra 5-10%, the Berger 185 Hybrid or Juggernaut is the current flavour of the month.

In FO most top guys seem to be using 7 WSM, either 7mm or 300WSM necked down, driving 180 Bergers.

It would have been good to keep FTR at 155, to make it a more even playing field (and limit costs), but that horse has bolted, and like I said, the yanks are going even heavier than 185... Been hearing things about heavier pills in extra-extra long barrels...

Originally Posted by ebf

Bugger That, you seem to use the term "F Class" to refer to FO. That might have been the case in the past, as some in the NRA still seem to do this. With the move to 6.1 scoring, we have hopefully broken the ubmilical to TR and positioned more as a "real" F class sub-division. Most of the resistance to FTR going 6.10 came from TR shooters

Those of us shooting currently see F-Class as having two equal divisions, FTR and FO.

The 308s we are shooting are a world apart from 1:14 144grainers. The Lapua Scenar 155 and HBC Dyer Mk2 are both pretty good, and for that extra 5-10%, the Berger 185 Hybrid or Juggernaut is the current flavour of the month.

In FO most top guys seem to be using 7 WSM, either 7mm or 300WSM necked down, driving 180 Bergers.

It would have been good to keep FTR at 155, to make it a more even playing field (and limit costs), but that horse has bolted, and like I said, the yanks are going even heavier than 185... Been hearing things about heavier pills in extra-extra long barrels...

I know it’s near impossible but imagine for a second if you could operate independently of the NRA. If I was still involved I would push the NRA for support to shoot independently of TR at least one competition per year at Trent ham. This would give you a bit of a foot holding to act on in the future.

That why I chambered in 7mm WSM. 5 years ago I had my rifle setup in both my FO stock and the A5 so I could use it for both FO and hunting. I have 2 new Krieger barrels for it and a True flight. The WSM is a natural shooter with extremely low ES and consistent good groups I can see why guys have adopted it.

With how things have panned out I think F-TR has actually gone in the right direction. I also think it requires more skill to be successful. FO is a bit of a drag race but it comes with the challenge of keeping it going all day when shooting 4 matches. Without having done anything like that with my WSM I expect that would be a challenge although I sure wouldn’t shoot the powder I currently am for FO.
Interesting developments Thanks.

@ebf It is even worse in my club where some of the older members still call our class of shooting "Free Rifle". No amount of correcting by me will change them including trying to explain that Free Rifle is a 3 pos event nothing at all like F Class. grrr that is what we are up against. A few ago when I was more active and took out our clubs FO champs I was subsequently presented with a cup at our annual presentation. The cup had a label with it - Free Rifle.
Re the NRA fees - as membership declines the fixed costs to run the organisation will be shared across fewer members so will continue to escalate in value.

I wish they had kept the 155gr, they can still do by regualting that but usually the ones with the most money make the loudest noises, and have I think ruined every sport Ive had a go at for 40 odd years.

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