Thread: FMJ on animals

hey haven't forgotten the pic I moved a little while ago and havnt come across my recovered projectile collection amongst all my crap yet

Originally Posted by res

It has happened a lot, wether it has killed anyone is another question.

I have my grandfathers old rifle that has a fucked barrel from this happening.
My father just clipped the tips off with side cutters for close bush hunting-one day he took to much off.

Fmj is a misleading name as most jacketed projectiles are formed from "cups" of the jacket material-on fmj the remnants of the open top of the cup is at the back while soft point/hollow point/ballistic tip hunting ammo has it at the front.
So if you take to much off the front the high psi of the propellant could push the core out.

You used to be able to buy kits that took a "safe" amount off and created a hollow point.
I doubt they would be considered safe today.

It's a long time since I loaded with FMJ, but I'm pretty sure that the base was open, which is the reverse of a softpoint, where the copper covers the base. I can see a situation where the jacket could be left in the barrel if both ends are open.

have a read of this, well worth the time. It speaks about the 223 overall and also what a FMJ does on impact etc
.223 Remington

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Nathan fosters website is a mine of info, he reckons that the norinco 55gr .223 would perform as well as hunting ammo something to do with the bullet design makes it work as Eugene Stoner intended

I dont think, or I have seen no proof Stoner knew exactly what the effect would be. Could be wrong, so if someone has a URL Im interested in reading it. As a target guy I have not paid much attention to the wounding side of it, paper is paper. Anyway I spent some time digging in my info as I got interested in the Q and my books have quite a lot on it.

The first commonly issued M16 had a 1 in 12 twist (lets ignore the 1 in 14 oopsie) and first, the 55gr FMJ. From what I have read that bullet only worked because it was only just stable and because of its very high velocity, 3200fps. So as long as you are above 2500fps the proper/real FMJ is going to split in 2 major pieces at the canalure plus fragment and do a lot of damage, it also reads that it needs to be not over-stabilized.

So shooting the proper 55grain FMJ in a 1 in 12 twist (typical?) 22inch barrelled boltie at a terminal velocity of no less than 2500fps might work very well (<250m?), Note by 2300fps the bullet is no longer snapping in half by the way from the photos/research I have seen.

There are also FMJs and FMJs. So Belmont sells what they call seconds, 556nato, 55FMJs at $28 (ish) per 50 strikes me they are cheap, seem pretty accurate from my target testing so could work really well in a bolt gun on an animal below 200 or maybe 250m. The FMJs in say barnual ammo? I have no idea if it breaks up the same, it might be stronger as its steel jacketed? best avoided I suspect. If hand loading for a bolt gun, well it looks like you want them as fast as possible to work better.

If you are going to have a go, let us know how you do, I for one am very interested if it works, especially as its cheap!

I tried some FMJ 223 on goats once because I don't like all the wastage from SP. It was only 20m away and took them straight down with vital shots, but the bleeding still wasted a lot of meat and from inspecting the wounds I saw how sensitive it was to shot placement. Have a go and judge for yourself. I don't use them now though, not much point since SP is still cheap, I just use the steel-case Russian stuff which is fine.

found them these are 6.5x55 that had the tips filed

Originally Posted by Yukon

It's a long time since I loaded with FMJ, but I'm pretty sure that the base was open, which is the reverse of a softpoint, where the copper covers the base. I can see a situation where the jacket could be left in the barrel if both ends are open.

Quite right. The construction is shown in a diagram here. If you file the top off an FMJ all that is holding the core into the copper jacket (Or full metal jacket) is the shoulder or taper at the front. With the availability of the SP or HP projectiles I would not suggest altering an FMJ into anything else. The risk of damage to the gun and your person is definitely there if it is done wrong. Note that of you take the tip off a FMJ then all you have is a metal tube open at both ends with a heavy core in the middle. The resistance of the rifling in the barrel pulls the hard metal exterior but if that distorts there is nothing pulling the core back hence where it leaves the possibility of having a jacket left in the barrel after the core is gone.

Originally Posted by timattalon

Quite right. The construction is shown in a diagram here. If you file the top off an FMJ all that is holding the core into the copper jacket (Or full metal jacket) is the shoulder or taper at the front. With the availability of the SP or HP projectiles I would not suggest altering an FMJ into anything else. The risk of damage to the gun and your person is definitely there if it is done wrong. Note that of you take the tip off a FMJ then all you have is a metal tube open at both ends with a heavy core in the middle. The resistance of the rifling in the barrel pulls the hard metal exterior but if that distorts there is nothing pulling the core back hence where it leaves the possibility of having a jacket left in the barrel after the core is gone.

Ive shot some 303s and 308s that had the nose pinched off with some pliers, the ballistics resembled a slinky. If you smacked a goat with them tho it was game over.

Um, the chances of a jacket being left in the barrel is an almost comical idea to me, I have great difficulty believing it. Also I dont think lead is poured in but swagged (pressed) in.

The weakest bullets you are going to get will be cast lead, so taking off the copper jacket of an FMJ at the tip where it sees less force of the spin but leaving the main body shouldnt be an issue.

On top of that a good FMJ that is designed to break up by tumbling, well it just seems casually altering it to remove this capability, odd.

One of our club members shot a couple of deer recently with 62gr ADI projectiles and said it worked mint. Don't know any other details.

Originally Posted by steven

Um, the chances of a jacket being left in the barrel is an almost comical idea to me, I have great difficulty believing it. Also I dont think lead is poured in but swagged (pressed) in.

The weakest bullets you are going to get will be cast lead, so taking off the copper jacket of an FMJ at the tip where it sees less force of the spin but leaving the main body shouldnt be an issue.

On top of that a good FMJ that is designed to break up by tumbling, well it just seems casually altering it to remove this capability, odd.

Go find an old gunsmith and ask him, When I first started shooting I used to hang out at the local gunshop quite a lot the gunsmith that owned it was ex army and had a stack of .303 barrels
taken of old stuffed Le Enfield's a good number of them had jackets stuck in them, a .303 has 45000 psi pressure when fired so a lead plug is not going to stop it, the lead core is swaged into the jacket
not bonded, as lead is soft and slippery compared to the jacket it will part company with the jacket leaving it in the barrel, FMJ's are not designed to break up that just happens some times go to any range
and you will find FMJ's intact most of them will be bent like bananas the broken up ones are ricochets thats where the tumbling bullets come from not from hitting flesh, any bullet so unstable that it tumbles
on impact is not any use it won't fly straight or penetrate far enough the military is all about putting holes through things if the projectiles break up on light cover they are not of much use,
Also cast lead bullets are harder than the cores of FMJ's bullets general they are pure lead as it is easy to swage into the jackets, soft point bullet cores are some what harder usually 3% antinomy
is added to pure lead to slow expansion, where a cast bullet is made up of 92% lead 6% antimony 2% tin, If you want cheap bullets use cast ones as long as there are wheel weights and lead flashings
available there will be plenty of cheap bullets,This is what a cast bullet will do if you get it wrong

Looks like you got it right if that's an exit?

Not really wasted a lot of meat, bullet was to soft for the velocity

Its mostly depends upon the ammo you have and after that size of animal you are going to hunt.

Guys, please don't cheap out on killing animals, we need to keep our sport as humane as possible despite what anyone may tell you about FMJ. Keep your FMJ for your steel and paper targets as I do.

Thanks