Thread: Knockdown power

I like his stuff I don't think he's anymore of a spoon than 95% of the spoons on here.

Happy your entertained nor-west.

If you read his article on scopes. you'll have to admit
Harpo did it better.

Haven't seen either of their presentations on scopes, but so be it.

Hey give Ron some credit, He's making a living doing something he loves. Could say we are the dick heads.
Watched a few, some good some average, depends where you are starting from.

my dad still talks about that articles with the bullet impact moving the box and the pencil recording how far it moved.
So must have been late 60's to late 70's.
Z

Just been googling what "spoon" means. It's supposed to be a sleeping position.

I must have watched the wrong couple of vids, I'll try and watch a few more, as I may have missed the good stuff.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

FFS this was done to death...50-60-70 years ago....think it was Matt Grant who set up a wooded box on stand with pencil attached to scribe on paper when box moved...shot box..pencil moved...put but plate on box,fired shot...pencil moved....threw cricket ball at box...and it moved the most of all.

in theory a 110grn hp from 30/06 delivers more energy than a 180 grn...but delivery in a 1" deep dinnerplate sized crater doesnt kill well.....a 1" wide 12" deep hole kills very well.

Greetings Micky and all,
From Matt's text it was 1947. The article was reprinted in "The Sharp Shooter" in 1972. Everyone should read it.
Regards Grandpamac.

projectile choice IS IMPORTANT and DOES make a difference...eg using my .223 for wallabies or hares the 50 grn Vmax/Zmax is simply outstanding...it dumps all its energy inside animal,destroys itself in process and makes big mess in a hurry...PERFECT for very thin skinned light boned critters and stops the hop quicksmartly.

for deer sized critters the 50 grn ttsx Barnes mono does opposite,it penetrates right through leaving smaller hole but a deep one.
middle ground would have to go to Hornady 55grn factory loads,and many many almost any basic cup n core loading...penertrates ok and expands ok...not huge amount of either but enough to do the job....shot placement is criticle on bigger game.....
you CAN shoot rabbits with barnes ttsx...and they will die...but if you misplace shot it may take some time.
you can shoot deer with 50grn Vmax too...but unless you in brain,neck close to spinal column or slipped in between ribs I dont like your chances of a quick clean kill


now on paper all three of those loads is identicle and have same energy and same knockdown power...reality is far from it.

Greetings Again Micky and All,
The following chapter "Why Bullets Kill" and the one after that "Efficient Game Killing" in Bruce and Matt's book is excellent giving the ins and outs of shot placement. I am a little surprised just how well this book has aged although perhaps I should not be as deer physiology has not changed at all. I think I need to add it to the read again pile.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by mimms2

Fill it with water...Line a few of them up and see how many the pellet penetrates and where it dumps it's energy.


@the op:
FPE. at muzzle, retained at distance, and transferred to target...This is why people generall use expanding projectiles... to ensure maximum energy transfer.
Shoot a deer with FMJ and you better be spot-on, because it's just going to drill a hole.

As for "gun not knocking you over"... you recieve the reciprocal force of the projectile... damped by 4-5kgs of gun, and spead over a shoulder stock... that same amount of force is in the little pointy bit... same force, smaller surface area, and if it's a mushrooming one, all of that force is going into the target, in a concentrated manner.
Something something hydrostatic shock...

You are dead right. It does damage but there still isnt enough kinetic force to knock things over. Bit like a steel plate. yes you can make them tip over but you could do the same thing pushing them. It isnt a lot really figuratively speaking.
the heaviest of rifles like the 460 wby and up can detach retinas after only a few shots. Probably similar to getting smashed by a heavyweight boxer but if that same boxer punched a deer in the shoulder it wouldnt send it cartwheeling.

Greetings All,
Trying to compare the knockdown power of projectiles using maths can be an exercise in futility. It is relatively easy to calculate how many foot pounds force or Joules of energy a moving projectile has but calculating how this is represented in killing power is another matter altogether. There are just too many variables.
Regards Grandpamac.

Something that i haven't seen differentiated here is Foot pounds of energy and Momentum. They are not the same but get confused in the maths and in the Grants book because projectile Momentum has an equal recoil equivalent and it is momentum in the cricket ball that rocks the 'saw horse' deer. FPE from velocity is what produces the temporary wound channel and tissue disruption resulting in a shockwave that can cause instant collapse. Sustained Momentum results in penetration without the shockwave / temporary wound channel.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Something that i haven't seen differentiated here is Foot pounds of energy and Momentum. They are not the same but get confused in the maths and in the Grants book because projectile Momentum has an equal recoil equivalent and it is momentum in the cricket ball that rocks the 'saw horse' deer. FPE from velocity is what produces the temporary wound channel and tissue disruption resulting in a shockwave that can cause instant collapse. Sustained Momentum results in penetration without the shockwave / temporary wound channel.

Greetings Moa Hunter,
I got pulled up on this once before so can't help much other than I believe that the energy transfer is through momentum. At the end of the day we need a projectile that will penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals and sometimes enough expansion to sufficiently damage the clockwork to cause a quick death. Both of these relate to projectile construction more than to how many foot pounds force or Joules of energy it is carrying. We would be better spending our time looking at the projectile and matching it to velocity and game hunted rather than fussing over the exact energy. Micky has alluded to this previously.
Regards Grandpamac.

Knockdown power eh.... The last goat I shot with the 45/70 was knocked down , along with the 1 1/2 inch thick tree it was standing in front of...
'Nuff said ...

(My daughter almost wet herself with laughter when the tree fell over )