Thread: Knockdown power

Originally Posted by Woody

Iv'e used both and at short range I would agree with Rons comments a out 7*61 damage. However, that cartridge was developed to provide superior bc and trajectory, wind resistance at longer ranges and its accuracy was legendary. Designed to meet higher parameters at long range.
Still, a good 30-06 with good bc 178-180 grain bullets with mv 2700'/s + is a very good hunting round. The 06 will chuck a high bc 165grain bullet using 2209 @ 2900'/s. To me it is an awesome calibre.

30 06 is still considered one of the very best, all-round cartridges in the US. It simply does the job and all going well, is capable of stopping anything. 7x57 falls into much the same class by all accounts. Both are relatively pleasant to shoot, which is probably another factor

Ron Spoomer talks shit. He is a classic American 'Gun Writer' who doesn't compare apples to apples, conduct objective reviews or write anything original.

Just my opinion...

@grandpamac are you referring to this Ron? https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/about

Originally Posted by 300_BLK

@grandpamac are you referring to this Ron? https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/about

Greetings 300-BLK,
No this was a New Zealand Ron that lived in Napier up until his death. Ron Spomer is a different Ron that wrote for Handloader and Rifle a few years back. I rather enjoyed his humorous articles which used to poke fun at some of hunters odd ways. They were light weight but fun.
Regards GPM.

I always assumed that anything wooped hard enough by a bullet (the huge expansion you see in those gel tests) would immediately become ruptured celled / bruised tissue and would therefore be useless to anything trying to run. I thought this bruised meat caused was the real result of hydro-static shock for want of a redundant term.

GMP is right pointing out that 'knockdown power' isn't what some understand it to be. The best example of it being debunked was the FBI report into pistol injuries - they found lethality was all about hole depth but it was largely splitting hairs IIRC

If you have ever had a darned good whack in the ribs (common in some of the situations my generation got up to in our younger days or in rough rugby) resulting in becoming "winded" you will have an inkling of hydrostatic shock.
A soft blow had no effect. Same with a long shot where range has disapated energy to have little immediate effect unless to brain or spine.

Originally Posted by Woody

If you have ever had a darned good whack in the ribs (common in some of the situations my generation got up to in our younger days or in rough rugby) resulting in becoming "winded" you will have an inkling of hydrostatic shock.
A soft blow had no effect. Same with a long shot where range has disapated energy to have little immediate effect unless to brain or spine.

Ive often ponderred that and do wonder if it matters where in breathing cycle animal is when hit...eg if has just finished breathing out,and is hit.....the daylight will get in QUICKLY as next chest movement will suck air in through holes...and nothing in tank to run on...Vs lungs full and charged with O2 when hit might give some gas in tank to move off.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Ive often ponderred that and do wonder if it matters where in breathing cycle animal is when hit...eg if has just finished breathing out,and is hit.....the daylight will get in QUICKLY as next chest movement will suck air in through holes...and nothing in tank to run on...Vs lungs full and charged with O2 when hit might give some gas in tank to move off.

Greetings Micky and All,
It is not the O2 in the lungs that keeps the deer going but the O2 in the blood. A fast bleeding shot to the lungs runs the blood pressure down quickly. A slow bleeding shot to the heart results in a slower death. Bruce grant wrote a very good chapter on this called Why bullets kill. You still see the fable about a shot to the heart resulting in instant death being repeated which is why, Shearer, the debate continues.
All good fun though. Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Micky and All,
It is not the O2 in the lungs that keeps the deer going but the O2 in the blood. A fast bleeding shot to the lungs runs the blood pressure down quickly. A slow bleeding shot to the heart results in a slower death. Bruce grant wrote a very good chapter on this called Why bullets kill. You still see the fable about a shot to the heart resulting in instant death being repeated which is why, Shearer, the debate continues.
All good fun though. Grandpamac.

Regarding the instant collapse Heart shot, there was a vid posted here a while back ( by @stug)about a South African game hunting outfit and what they had found regarding shot placement. They had Vets examine dead shot animals and found that on the rare occasion that instant collapse from a heart shot occurred it was concluded that the bullet impact had taken place at the precise timing of a heart beat sending blood to the brain - there was evidence of a brain embolism or similar rupture which had caused the collapse from the highly pressurised blood

Any where in the eye will do it. Poke em with a pointed stick if you fancy,that'll do it also.
They intend ti run in circles minus an eye.
Far to many experts out there..

Curious how long it takes for shock to set in and blood to start being redirected to the vital organs. Is this a 20min effect or faster than that?
If thats another existing thread i'll gladly take the slap with the atlantic salmon as punishment haha

I find his videos friendly and pleasant enough. And most importantly he dosn't appear to come across as an arrogant git. In my opinion anyway.
I think the subject of cartridges is always going to ruffle a few feathers regardless of who is presenting it.

As others have pointed out, knock down power in terms of the bullet’s kinetic energy literally knocking an animal over, is a myth. The reason an animal gets poleaxed is generally when the bullet has caused catastrophic damage to the brain, spinal column, or the autonomic plexus; it wasn’t dropped by straight out kinetic energy.

But in my mind kinetic energy is still critical for a quick kill. There’s been a bit of discussion in this thread about hydrostatic shock, temporary wound channels, and blood pressure spikes to the brain all causing immediate incapacitation, even though the bullet may not have directly hit and damaged the CNS. I’m no pathologist but this makes a lot of sense to me. If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!

Originally Posted by 7.62

If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!

Very much a function of where in the lungs the animal is shot though. It's a good example, but not a guaranteed outcome.

Bowhunters need to avoid the leg bones, so shoot for the "crease" or just behind, around rib #6-7 give or take. Oftentimes, this point of aim actually ends up a bit further back. The expert bowhunter wants a quartering angle so the broadhead runs diagonally forwards across the vitals, not perpendicular to the spine.

Rifle hunters often deliberately aim for the leg bones - the hilar shot for example is taught as "front line of the foreleg". Regardless, the point of impact is around rib #3-4. The lungs behind ribs 3-4 are sat right on top of and surround the aorta and autonomic plexus, where the pulmonary arteries enter the lungs (the hilar). A fragmenting bullet like the SST with 2000 ft/lb doesn't just make a hole in the lungs, it instantly depressurizes the entire body's blood supply and terminally scrambles the CNS. A good hilar shot destroys the pulmonary arteries, aorta and CNS. Bang, flop.

The rifle hunter who hits a deer around rib #7 has got a runner to deal with. When he catches up with it and guts it, he sees a dirty big hole through the rear pointy section of the lungs, and can't understand how the animal made it so far. This part of the lungs actually bleeds quite slowly.

A couple of weeks ago an acquaintance in Victoria shot a large sambar with his 9.3x64 Brenneke (285gr) from 60m. Long story about how hard the recovery was, the damn deer took off like a top fuel dragster, downhill, in thick timber. This fella makes a lot of noise about how tough sambar are, and hence the rifle - everything has to be bigger and better to take down these leviathans of the forest. But the bottom line is that he doesn't aim far enough forward, and hits them too far back. In the High Country, in winter, that's a real pain in the arse. With that amount of energy (almost 4000 ft/lb!) the animal should be poleaxed. There's only one reason why it is able to run away, even if only for 10-20 seconds - it can cover a lot of ground in that short time...

Originally Posted by 7.62

As others have pointed out, knock down power in terms of the bullet’s kinetic energy literally knocking an animal over, is a myth. The reason an animal gets poleaxed is generally when the bullet has caused catastrophic damage to the brain, spinal column, or the autonomic plexus; it wasn’t dropped by straight out kinetic energy.

But in my mind kinetic energy is still critical for a quick kill. There’s been a bit of discussion in this thread about hydrostatic shock, temporary wound channels, and blood pressure spikes to the brain all causing immediate incapacitation, even though the bullet may not have directly hit and damaged the CNS. I’m no pathologist but this makes a lot of sense to me. If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!

The shock wave from a high velocity bullet cannot be underestimated for 'stunning' the animal which then bleeds to death and dies while laying on the ground. We have all seen a 'stunned' animal that we thought had been killed instantly, leap to its feet before the eight count and leave the ring. This 20 second link shows the shockwave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osNWIP7tg3Y