Thread: Knockdown power

If you have ever had a darned good whack in the ribs (common in some of the situations my generation got up to in our younger days or in rough rugby) resulting in becoming "winded" you will have an inkling of hydrostatic shock.
A soft blow had no effect. Same with a long shot where range has disapated energy to have little immediate effect unless to brain or spine.

Originally Posted by 300_BLK

@grandpamac are you referring to this Ron? https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/about

Greetings 300-BLK,
No this was a New Zealand Ron that lived in Napier up until his death. Ron Spomer is a different Ron that wrote for Handloader and Rifle a few years back. I rather enjoyed his humorous articles which used to poke fun at some of hunters odd ways. They were light weight but fun.
Regards GPM.

Originally Posted by Woody

If you have ever had a darned good whack in the ribs (common in some of the situations my generation got up to in our younger days or in rough rugby) resulting in becoming "winded" you will have an inkling of hydrostatic shock.
A soft blow had no effect. Same with a long shot where range has disapated energy to have little immediate effect unless to brain or spine.

Ive often ponderred that and do wonder if it matters where in breathing cycle animal is when hit...eg if has just finished breathing out,and is hit.....the daylight will get in QUICKLY as next chest movement will suck air in through holes...and nothing in tank to run on...Vs lungs full and charged with O2 when hit might give some gas in tank to move off.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

FFS this was done to death...50-60-70 years ago....think it was Matt Grant who set up a wooded box on stand with pencil attached to scribe on paper when box moved...shot box..pencil moved...put but plate on box,fired shot...pencil moved....threw cricket ball at box...and it moved the most of all.

in theory a 110grn hp from 30/06 delivers more energy than a 180 grn...but delivery in a 1" deep dinnerplate sized crater doesnt kill well.....a 1" wide 12" deep hole kills very well.

And it's still going

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Ive often ponderred that and do wonder if it matters where in breathing cycle animal is when hit...eg if has just finished breathing out,and is hit.....the daylight will get in QUICKLY as next chest movement will suck air in through holes...and nothing in tank to run on...Vs lungs full and charged with O2 when hit might give some gas in tank to move off.

Greetings Micky and All,
It is not the O2 in the lungs that keeps the deer going but the O2 in the blood. A fast bleeding shot to the lungs runs the blood pressure down quickly. A slow bleeding shot to the heart results in a slower death. Bruce grant wrote a very good chapter on this called Why bullets kill. You still see the fable about a shot to the heart resulting in instant death being repeated which is why, Shearer, the debate continues.
All good fun though. Grandpamac.

Curious how long it takes for shock to set in and blood to start being redirected to the vital organs. Is this a 20min effect or faster than that?
If thats another existing thread i'll gladly take the slap with the atlantic salmon as punishment haha

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Micky and All,
It is not the O2 in the lungs that keeps the deer going but the O2 in the blood. A fast bleeding shot to the lungs runs the blood pressure down quickly. A slow bleeding shot to the heart results in a slower death. Bruce grant wrote a very good chapter on this called Why bullets kill. You still see the fable about a shot to the heart resulting in instant death being repeated which is why, Shearer, the debate continues.
All good fun though. Grandpamac.

Regarding the instant collapse Heart shot, there was a vid posted here a while back ( by @stug)about a South African game hunting outfit and what they had found regarding shot placement. They had Vets examine dead shot animals and found that on the rare occasion that instant collapse from a heart shot occurred it was concluded that the bullet impact had taken place at the precise timing of a heart beat sending blood to the brain - there was evidence of a brain embolism or similar rupture which had caused the collapse from the highly pressurised blood

Any where in the eye will do it. Poke em with a pointed stick if you fancy,that'll do it also.
They intend ti run in circles minus an eye.
Far to many experts out there..

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Ron spoomer is a bloody spoon.

Not even going to click the link.

Interesting comment. I have watch several of his presentations and did not realize that he was a "spoon".

What am I missing?

Originally Posted by Delta Variant

Interesting comment. I have watch several of his presentations and did not realize that he was a "spoon".

What am I missing?

I just find him very irritating and he has an obvious bias.

I find his videos friendly and pleasant enough. And most importantly he dosn't appear to come across as an arrogant git. In my opinion anyway.
I think the subject of cartridges is always going to ruffle a few feathers regardless of who is presenting it.

As others have pointed out, knock down power in terms of the bullet’s kinetic energy literally knocking an animal over, is a myth. The reason an animal gets poleaxed is generally when the bullet has caused catastrophic damage to the brain, spinal column, or the autonomic plexus; it wasn’t dropped by straight out kinetic energy.

But in my mind kinetic energy is still critical for a quick kill. There’s been a bit of discussion in this thread about hydrostatic shock, temporary wound channels, and blood pressure spikes to the brain all causing immediate incapacitation, even though the bullet may not have directly hit and damaged the CNS. I’m no pathologist but this makes a lot of sense to me. If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!

look at the humble .22lr and brier rabbit
compare the weights say 2grms and 1000grms so a 500th and 1kg is a BIG rabbit

red stag...100kgs for sake of easy maths needs hit with 200grm projectile...thats grams not grains to be hit with same....
and we have all hit rabbits and had them move off before expireing...hares chest shot are a classic for the dead run...

Originally Posted by 7.62

If we compare a bow hunter making a clean double lung shot on a red hind at 50yd, to a rifle hunter also making a lung shot on a hind at 150yd, what is the likely outcome? In the archery scenario the arrow has arrived with minimal energy, maybe 100ftlb, but it has still inflicted massive damage to the lungs and associated blood vessels. Despite this the hind still runs 75yd until she expires from blood loss. And what of our mate with a 270 or 308 running some SSTs at a decent speed? Well the hind 150yd away has been completely flattened. The SST has arrived with over 2000ftlb of energy and caused massive damage to the lungs, and has also instantly incapacitated the hind. Was this caused by hydrostatic shock or some other mechanism? I have no idea but kinetic energy is a good thing!

Very much a function of where in the lungs the animal is shot though. It's a good example, but not a guaranteed outcome.

Bowhunters need to avoid the leg bones, so shoot for the "crease" or just behind, around rib #6-7 give or take. Oftentimes, this point of aim actually ends up a bit further back. The expert bowhunter wants a quartering angle so the broadhead runs diagonally forwards across the vitals, not perpendicular to the spine.

Rifle hunters often deliberately aim for the leg bones - the hilar shot for example is taught as "front line of the foreleg". Regardless, the point of impact is around rib #3-4. The lungs behind ribs 3-4 are sat right on top of and surround the aorta and autonomic plexus, where the pulmonary arteries enter the lungs (the hilar). A fragmenting bullet like the SST with 2000 ft/lb doesn't just make a hole in the lungs, it instantly depressurizes the entire body's blood supply and terminally scrambles the CNS. A good hilar shot destroys the pulmonary arteries, aorta and CNS. Bang, flop.

The rifle hunter who hits a deer around rib #7 has got a runner to deal with. When he catches up with it and guts it, he sees a dirty big hole through the rear pointy section of the lungs, and can't understand how the animal made it so far. This part of the lungs actually bleeds quite slowly.

A couple of weeks ago an acquaintance in Victoria shot a large sambar with his 9.3x64 Brenneke (285gr) from 60m. Long story about how hard the recovery was, the damn deer took off like a top fuel dragster, downhill, in thick timber. This fella makes a lot of noise about how tough sambar are, and hence the rifle - everything has to be bigger and better to take down these leviathans of the forest. But the bottom line is that he doesn't aim far enough forward, and hits them too far back. In the High Country, in winter, that's a real pain in the arse. With that amount of energy (almost 4000 ft/lb!) the animal should be poleaxed. There's only one reason why it is able to run away, even if only for 10-20 seconds - it can cover a lot of ground in that short time...

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
Here is a little story related to me by Ron. Ron was a hunter and had been most of his life starting not long after WW2. He had used a number of rifles and shot an enormous number of deer. By the time I knew him his favourite cartridge was a 30-06 in a Schultz and Larsen rifle. By the lack of remaining bluing and stock finish it had been his favourite for some time. Ron had been on a Tahr trip in the south island and had bought another Schultz and Larsen rifle in 7x61 Sharp and Hart Super. Factory cartridges used a 160 grain projectile at a claimed 3,100 fps. Speer chronographed the round at 2,929 fps. Ron took it out and shot a Sika with it. Despite a diligent attempt Ron was unable to recover any significant amount of meat. The rifle was returned to the cupboard where it still sat gleaming a decade or so later while the well worn 30-06 did the business on the deer. Regrettably I never asked Ron what loads he used in either rifle but the 7x61 loads were likely factory. Ron left us almost 15 years ago so the chance to ask him has been lost. I will leave any interpretation of the tale to others.
Regards Grandpamac.

Ron as in the colour?