Thread: Muzzle brakes, Suppressors, and Accuracy

Originally Posted by Puffin

Deviating off-topic somewhat I know, but these are interesting comments: could you please explain to me the physics of any enhancement in recoil reduction from having a "muzzle brake" internal to a suppressor beyond the spreading in time of the gas generated impulse with an associated reduction in intensity that is inherent to a suppressor function in standard configuration?

The basic principle of operation in any muzzle brake (whether or not it is in a suppressor) is that a series of faces at right angles to the bore are impacted by the rapidly expanding muzzle gases, tending to push the rifle forward which counteracts the recoil to some degree. In some semi-auto actions, this forward pushing force (combined with a different gas pressure curve) can short-cycle the action and the rifle needs to tuned to function properly after suppressor installation.

Originally Posted by ebf

Interesting comments gundoc, although I am not sure I completely agree with your analysis.

All barrels "whip" or to put it differently are affected by harmonics. From the skinniest hunting barrel to the heaviest benchrest one. I've stood and watched Palma profile barrels whip around like a limp noodle

To me, the first port of call should be tuning the load to minimise the effect of the sine wave. I would tune the load first, and then start looking at a barrel tuner to further decrease the effects. Part of that may well be due to dampening effect by more weight up front, but it also gives you the benefit of being able to tweak loaded rounds depending on conditions on the day.

I suspect most people find increased accuracy with brakes or supressors simply because of a reduction in felt or perceived recoil...

Yes, muzzle brakes and suppressors are only a couple of mitigating factors in the reduction of barrel whip. Muzzle brakes can be set up with a range of adjustment which allows them to be tuned to the specific barrel (like the BOSS system). Handloads should always be developed to suit the rifle as no two rifles of the same model ever perform in an identical manner. All of these factors improve accuracy.

Originally Posted by gundoc

The basic principle of operation in any muzzle brake (whether or not it is in a suppressor) is that a series of faces at right angles to the bore are impacted by the rapidly expanding muzzle gases, tending to push the rifle forward which counteracts the recoil to some degree.

As soon as the gas exits the muzzle brake ports it is pushed back into the suppressor or cover mitigating any forward thrust.

I tried muzzle brake covers years ago to try to reduce noise & blast, miserable fail, so I canned the idea.

There are a number of videos on the net showing this using muzzle brakes with a suppressor or cover placed over them before & after recoil comparisons on an AR 15.

I have done a couple using bigger calibres.

Originally Posted by Nibblet

So are you trying to say that a muzzle brake or suppressor that isn't concentric and therefore not having an even gas flow around the bullet won't effect accuracy or stability?

Provided any offset is small - as it should be for a correctly fitted brake or suppressor - and remains the same for all shots, then my thinking is that the effect on accuracy from a slight but constant eccentricity will be negligible.

Originally Posted by Nibblet

And that the air being pushed forward of the bullet as it travels down the tube and into/onto the brake/suppressor plays no part?

My back of an envelope calculations found that the column of air in a 20" .308 barrel has a mass of 0.03 grams whereas typical loads for 308Win are 3 grams, so yes, again negligible.

I've read a few pieces that claim a small increase in accuracy from a suppressor because the air the bullet enters after leaving the barrel is calmer and less disturbed than it would be without the suppressor.

My quatro max is nearly done and fitted. I will be looking forward to testing it against my can on the RM. Not sure I can ever beat my last group with either mind you

couple of intersting articles on here about muzzle brakes and suppresers

Suppressors & Muzzle Brakes Archives - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

As an alternative I found this bolt on muzzle brake made by Hinterland shooting Supplies. Have used it on my 300wsm and now on my 260. Has decreased group sizes and recoil considerably.... But shitloads louder!

That break was designed for 105mm L118 Light gun

Yes, interesting between the two but one would think like all rifles, different rifles may like one better than the other. Was watching a vid on U tube before with a guy who had a tactical 7mm mag, had a muzzle brake which he liked and shot reasonable groups with it. He tried a suppressor to compare the difference, and even thou there was noticeable more recoil he shot far better groups with the suppressor than with the muzzle break.
On another side track, im thinking about getting a 7m mag myself. Will be used for open country, longer range stuff(not miles thou ). Even thou I know a 7m mag isn't huge on recoil, the less the better so was thinking when I get one I put one of gregs T2 brakes on. The question is, will the muzzle blast and noise be a issue if im wearing hearing protection?? Is a 7m mag with a muzzle brake be extra loud or be fine using the right hearing protection or is going the suppressor way the better way to go?
As im likely to be using it only for open country I have no problem wearing plugs or muffs when using it , or when I see game.

Originally Posted by deer243

Yes, interesting between the two but one would think like all rifles, different rifles may like one better than the other. Was watching a vid on U tube before with a guy who had a tactical 7mm mag, had a muzzle brake which he liked and shot reasonable groups with it. He tried a suppressor to compare the difference, and even thou there was noticeable more recoil he shot far better groups with the suppressor than with the muzzle break.
On another side track, im thinking about getting a 7m mag myself. Will be used for open country, longer range stuff(not miles thou ). Even thou I know a 7m mag isn't huge on recoil, the less the better so was thinking when I get one I put one of gregs T2 brakes on. The question is, will the muzzle blast and noise be a issue if im wearing hearing protection?? Is a 7m mag with a muzzle brake be extra loud or be fine using the right hearing protection or is going the suppressor way the better way to go?
As im likely to be using it only for open country I have no problem wearing plugs or muffs when using it , or when I see game.

There is an easy fix, come up the range sometime, I have a brake testing 7RM, suppressor, brake & ammo, you can try them out

Best to go out the front of the range & lie on the grass, any structures around you can change the sound & blast signatures significantly

Cheers Greg, no rush but I happy take you up on that. Just want see what if feels like with a brake, ...I buy ye a beer

If your hunting with a dog or others @deer243 id suggest suppressor otherwise hearing protection and muzzle break wpuld do a great job

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by ARdave

couple of intersting articles on here about muzzle brakes and suppresers

Suppressors & Muzzle Brakes Archives - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

I wonder if the insane cost and added hassle of getting a suppressor in America has much influence on those results.
Interesting that all 100 shooters used one or the other.

The thing with the PRS competition in the USA , is that you might be using a suppressor but if the guy next to you is shooting with a muzzle brake, you still have to wear ear muffs; so if you have to wear ear muffs, you may as well shoot with a muzzle break.
Remember that is quite a dynamic type of shooting where you are carrying all the shit with you during most of the day: ounces equal pound, pounds equal pain!