Thread: Scope levels - do they work?

This is a bit odd really, identifying the benefit you may or may not get from an ACD is quite simple . A few bits from around the home and an hr on the hill will give you some very usefull information in real world terms. If anyones interested Ill post up the "how to" again.
Norway that's a nice video and the scenery is worth the download in itself but shows a very limited point of view with regard to a scope level.

Originally Posted by gimp

People buy a scope level and say things like "Whoa I noticed every time before I fired I'd check the level and it'd be way off"

because they have it mounted level to the top of the rifle, not the way they hold the rifle, no-one naturally holds a rifle exactly vertical, with the level you're trying to force yourself to and will be canting away from what the level says is flat... which doesn't matter as long as the reticle is leveled to the way that you hold the rifle, and as long as you have a consistent position

People notice themselves missing, go read on the internet about cant and scope levels, and decide that it must be that, because it's easier to buy a scope level than think "hmm it might be my inconsistent position, lack of natural point of aim, poor trigger control etc" and work on that

That's my theory anyway.

If you hold your rifle on the Piss and level your scope then dialing will be "interesting" to say the least!

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I agree with lethal. Most of the shots I take are from uneven ground, certainly not the position you set yourself up to practice from. So before I take the shot I will set up the cant of the rifle using the level then lock it out with the podloc, Works well for me and eliminates one more variable.
Norway in your video you show that you can put the rifle in position very consistently but can you do it from multiple shooting positions? Also you have about 3 degrees of cant, are you happy to have that much?

Originally Posted by L.R

Norway in your video you show that you can put the rifle in position very consistently but can you do it from multiple shooting positions?

Yes absolutely, well within what a scope level can give me.
No I cant the rifle into me instead of leaning my head into my rifle. It makes for the most consistent shooting. The scope is however level/ without cant.

Your perception of cant works with input from both the vestibular sense and visual input, and they come to a consensus in telling your brain what is level. Learn to level the reticle after the 40-50.000 sensors you have in each ear and don't pay too much attention to what the visuals say you'll be fine, after all gravity is always straight down. However, this requires a fitted rifle so you get a cheekweld every time.

What I failed to express clearly enough was that I'm attacking the scope mounted, having-to-move-your-head levels. The ones you see simultaneously with your sightpicture is fine. However, you can do perfectly well without one.

This is my atempt at understanding why a scope level will help. the two RH theritical targets are the same target at the same range.

When dialing the windage and elevation on the scope turret you are moving the x hair to be 'zero' at the intended range. no vertical or horozonatal reference point needed.

When using hold over you need the reticle 'as a refrence point' level to gain an accurate point of aim. Any cant in the refrence point will compound your point of impact with vertical from gravity.

Think of a grid of dots (horus reticle for example) with a elevation and windage hold over point, hold it level over a target, then rotate it around the x hair when using the same hold over on the target and you will see what I mean.

I think I have just confused myself

thoughts and comments welcome. I have the MAGPUL precision rifle dvd and understand it better from watching the dvd.

I don't think anyone thinks its not important to hold the scope (not necessarily rifle) level to the earth (gravity not the ground shape) Norway is just saying you dont need a level to do it...

I like to use a level as I find it hard in some of the spots to hold it level while half laying down a hill with bad cheek weild and not a great position on the scope.

I Have no problem if you have a good area to lay behind the rifle

But Norway has 3 degrees of cant when he takes a shot, i have close to zero when using my level. What are we saying is an acceptable level of cant? Norway obviously docent have any problem hitting his target.

It is not the sights but the rifle that cants. My sights are level.

Look at the olympic shooters. "Everyone" cants the RIFLE. I'll try and post some pics later.

I must be missing something because the inclinometer is on the scope not the rifle in your video and it is at 3 degrees when you fire.

As the video states: It is not calibrated.

I see. So was the scope actually level when you fired? I guess you don't know with out a device on there to check.

Originally Posted by Norway

It is not the sights but the rifle that cants. My sights are level.

Look at the olympic shooters. "Everyone" cants the RIFLE. I'll try and post some pics later.

Yes Anschutz for example have their top of the line diopter sights able to be canted to compensate for the cant the shooter desires the rifle to assume. The sights are then canted to maintain verticle and horizontal elevation/windage adjustments. The rifle is then held in a repeatable postion each time by a spirit level in the front foresight tube (also adjustable for cant). This level is adjustable to suit the cant. So the whole rifle can be at a severe cant but the sights back and front are "plumb" as is the target being shot at. Any adjustement made to the rear sight will be truelly vertical or horizontal. They are shooting at fixed known ranges. All this is a far cry from being out in the sticks I guess.

Yes so the scope must be canted on the rifle then, so at some point you must put a level on the scope while you are holding the rifle in its firing position and set the scope level.

In my case I would never manage to hold the rifle in the same position every time in some of the positions I shoot from in the field. So I feel a ACD is necessary for me.

I have a Horus bubble level on the left side of my scope. I shoot with both eyes open so its quick to focus on the level to check if the scope is plumb. I only usually use it for 600 plus meters where you have a little more time to take the shot. I guess the most important part is consistency. Maybe my form isn't the best...I need all the help I can get

Id say any slight cant without using an ACD would only be noticeable at ranges beyond 6-700m TBF. If I was missing at either 10, 2, 4 and 8 o'clock consistently at range I would consider getting one as weapon cant may be the problem.
If I miss it is usually a bad wind call or high and low due to incorrect data or stock position. I have never considered cant as an issue personally.