Thread: Scope levels - do they work?

Is their a formula to this cant thing, like so many degrees makes the bullet go here, Im not sure If I made my self clear sorry.

Nutt behind the butt! if you missed.......... YOU missed!

Originally Posted by L.R

So was the scope actually level when you fired? I guess you don't know with out a device on there to check.

Yes I did know. That is the whole point of this post about the vestibular sense. Gravity is by default straight down; drop an item and it will always fall straight down.

What I repeatedly fail to communicate properly is this

Originally Posted by leathel

I don't think anyone thinks its not important to hold the scope (not necessarily rifle) level to the earth (gravity not the ground shape) Norway is just saying you dont need a level to do it...

What I fail to identify properly is that I'm attacking the scope levels were you have to move your head to see it - those are nonsense.
The scope levels that you can see simultaneously with your sight picture is ok; they do the job.
But I also say that you don't NEED one of these to shot properly at LR. Building position is as Gimp says a training issue, regardless of terrain, angle or position.

There are three ways of asserting consistency in your hold; crosshairs and scope levels is relevant to this discussion. Scope level is a good tool for checking consistency, but you need to have the right model and place it somewhere you can see it. AND you can do very well without one.


As for rifle cant, that is no problem. It is better to bring a rifle into a straight head than bringing the head to a straight rifle. The below pictures are all olympic medalists. Fixed range as some say, but amongst the most technically proficient position builders in the world and that is the part that is relevant regardless of what range/ position you shoot from.

Funny looking at these small bore shooter pics because former nz small bore lady shooter ruth mcneir from good old Dannevirke has a cant as dose her former nz smallbore shooter husband Robbie and they say the same thing aslong as its always the same every shot.And silly question but dose a projectile no up from down??

Can you get rifles with a twist in the butt so the whole gun isnt canted ?

Originally Posted by Toby

Can you get rifles with a twist in the butt so the whole gun isnt canted ?

Why? Professional shooters don't..

So that the gun isnt canted.

Originally Posted by Toby

Is their a formula to this cant thing, like so many degrees makes the bullet go here, Im not sure If I made my self clear sorry.

Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.

i.e.

Scope height above bore = 1.5''
Drop at 1000y = 230''

Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left

[Ratio (230''/1.5'')] x1mm off centre (to the right) = Impact will be 153'' left of your aiming point

That in anyone’s language is a big miss!

kj

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.

If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.

Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?

Originally Posted by Toby

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

Yes.

The bore is the pivot point (the constant) the bullet doesn't shoot at an angle, in simplified terms it still comes out and falls towards the earth in the vertical plane effected by gravity no matter what angle the rifle is on. What does change by canting the rifle is you aiming point will pivot with the canted rifle, so your aiming point will not align with where the bullet will actually hit.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.

If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.

Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?

Yes they are two different things; but the topic of rifle cant or using a level to help reduce the effects of cant is what we are really talking about, this is the one that will have an effect on accuracy.

Norway didn't tare his digital level so the 3' is a red hearing - what is important is the 0.5' accuracy he showed that is possible to get from the bubble level. If we do some quick maths on what effect 0.5' has at 1000y then the bubble level would keep you within +1.2'' at 1000y...that’s pretty dam good for a $50 item.

Now when shooting from shitty positions on lumpy ground with poor check weld and across a steep slope, then from my experience I've found that every time I check my level before taking the shot, my first estiamte is waaaay off level. A quick re-level with my ACD and lock in the bi-pod and then I can take the shot with more confidence of hitting the target.

kj

Originally Posted by Toby

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

Originally Posted by kimjon

Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.

i.e.

Scope height above bore = 1.5''
Drop at 1000y = 230''

Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left

[Ratio (230''/1.5'')] x1mm off centre (to the right) = Impact will be 153'' left of your aiming point

That in anyone’s language is a big miss!

kj

Opps - Sorry guys I got my units mixed up on this one (mm v's inches) dam i hate working between imperial and metric.

But the same ratio applies and 154mm error for a minor cant of 1mm at the shooters end is still the difference between a kill and a gut shot.

kj

Kimjon that"s my take on it as well after some actual testing in a varrity of positions. The only question is can your vestiublar sences be relied upon in all situations the simple answer for me personally was no definatly not.
Noway Iv lost count of the threads you've posted in regarding scope levels. Seems like a whole lot of effort for a $50. item .I'm wondering did you get chased up a tree buy a scope level when you where young? Or maybe a scope level stole your girl friend?

Those pictures of the competitive shooters showing cant aren't relevant as their rifles are zeroed for one known specific range anyway so any variance from centre is only going to happen if they changed ranges without adjusting. For what you guys are saying here if a gun is always shot canted, it must be relevant, especially the further out you shoot from the rifles true zeroed range.

I surrender.
I simply fail to present the message correctly. It's all part pf my general "skill before gear" theme.

Here, enjoy the next segment of building position instead: Natural point of aim