Thread: Shooting: The sport all of us enjoy - do your part in preserving the ability to do so

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A517097/...

This is the Police submission and Police Association submission

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A500340/...

So looking at that submission the Police Association would like to see Australian and UK style firearm laws but need registration to make it happen. Another reason to fight it.

Originally Posted by Savage1

You need to learn the difference between the Police Association and the NZ Police.

I am aware of the difference but you can't tell me that the bias distrust felt from FAL holders across the country is only because we believe it to be true when you think it's not. This distrust has formed largely from police & MSM propaganda. There has been countless lies & disinformation spread in and around the proliferation of firearms. That is a fact.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true

This statement is true, I agree. To add, people are entitled to their own opinions too but that doesn't mean they are fact. And this is where yours & my opinion varies especially on the Bill of Rights 1689.

Originally Posted by Savage1

What's incorrect about the opening statement? I believe there is too many firearms in the wrong hands, don't you? Surely you're not angry because you didn't like the wording which is pretty clear it's about the wrong people having them?

Nothing is incorrect with the opening statement, I agree that there are firearms in the wrong hands. Perhaps the police could remove the 29 FAL's held by gang members to help with this. Too many firearms in the wrong hands though? Well at the moment this is only backed up by anecdotal evidence and firsthand accounts known only internally. I want hard statistical facts backed up by reliable data to be provided and to date things are contradicting themselves because firearm offending is trending down as the population is increasing but the police say otherwise? This to me is a good all round statistic that counters all of this babel that there is even a gun problem in NZ to begin with.

Originally Posted by Savage1

I believe firearm ownership is a privilege, I realize that it can be argued either way but it can be taken away and is not granted at birth and is not available to all people and it's certainly not listed in the Bill of Rights Act. But this is just my opinion.

Which brings me back to yours & my opinion and where opinions don't always remain fact. Yes Firearms ownership is a "privilege" in New Zealand as the Arms legislation provides it as a right, immunity or advantage, protected by law, to those fit and proper persons who apply for a firearms licence (i.e. pay a tax) which a licence “shall” be issued to them as the legislation clearly states.

Not "may" be issued or "could" be - A licence SHALL be issued.

If you believe in the right to life as stated here: New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109 (as at 01 July 2013), Public Act 8 Right not to be deprived of life – New Zealand Legislation Then surely you must realize that we have a right to defend one's life too.

Richard Prosser had this to say on another forum which sums it up nicely:

"Oh but it is a right. It is a timeless universal human right to be able to possess the means of ensuring one's survival, be that in terms of hunting food, or defending oneself, and one's home and family, or protecting the society or nation of which one is a part.

Neither the English Bill of Rights nor the US Constitution make reference to the right to have arms for the purpose of granting that right; the right exists, as do all elements of the Common Law, and it does not need to be granted, nor may it be denied other than within the Common Law. Rather, it is referenced in order to recognise and acknowledge that right, and to assert and affirm it so that it may not be forgotten or denied by those who make the rules and those who live under them, now and in the future.

The wording of the English Bill of Rights makes it in some ways a more elegant instrument than the US Constitution, because it states that the arms the citizens may have may be "suitable to their conditions", acknowledging that those conditions may change with time and circumstance. By definition arms used for one's defence must be capable of countering threats to one's safety, and as the means of threat evolve, so must the arms available to the citizens be able to evolve.

In the day of its writing, the Bill would have contemplated swords, pikes, muskets, and similar arms. Today it encompasses modern firearms. In the future it will encompass such technology as man is able to develop as time goes on. The conditions may change but the right does not.

The BOR also states that the having of arms shall be "as allowed by the law", meaning that the law shall allow it, but also that within the law there may be provisions to prevent breaches of the law, providing the law the ability to deny the having of arms to those who threaten the law so long as that law is lawful. That sounds convoluted but it means that the likes of criminals and the mentally unsound may be denied the having of arms, but also that no law that unlawfully denies rights under the law is a lawful law.

This latter consideration is pretty much how the granting of firearms licences operates in New Zealand today - a person demonstrating that they have the ability to safely have arms shall be issued with a licence, unless there is some lawful reason why they should not. This is the only matter in which the concept of 'privilege' applies with regards to the having of arms.

For clarity, a lawful law is one crafted within the constraints of the rights of the People. Parliament is of course Sovereign, and can create whatever laws it chooses - but it must be remembered, within that, that the powers of the Sovereign are not unlimited. Sovereign Power is no longer the divine right of Kings to rule alone under God, but rather is contained within, and constrained by, the terms of the Magna Carta.

So a law passed by a Sovereign Parliament, which breaches the terms of the Magna Carta, is not a lawful law. Law abiding people are not bound by such a law, and indeed it is their duty as citizens to oppose it.

So mote it be."

Originally Posted by Savage1

"gaming the system" wasn't a lie at all, certainly not a blatant one. "Gaming" is a matter of subjective opinion and they probably aren't far off the mark, whether you or I agree or not.

Well this brings me back to why I originally picked at the police's opening statement in their submission, they believe there are "too many of the wrong type" Your union president has been quoted saying "why on earth do we need MSSA's & pistols in the country"

But hey, you could be right, I might just be reading between the lines. Somehow though, my gut tells me otherwise.

To be honest I would turn it around and say that police are the ones that are gaming the system. There is no other requirement for an E endorsement than the applicant being fit and proper, and having security of sound construction. The president of the police association has publically stated that he doesn't see why we should be able to own pistols and MSSA's, and the police associations submission leads one to believe that they think obtaining an E endorsement should be exceedingly difficult, if they think that "gaming the system" is giving advise to people who are applying for one.

Read the arms act. None of their made up stuff is in there.

And then there is this gem from that buffoon Cahill.

Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:

" We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment " " bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals "

" I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to. "

Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...-20-april-2017

As I said in the other thread Call To Arms, we need to keep it tidy. That way we've at least keep some credibility to the general public who are able to see this, as well as the people who monitor all forums and feed back to whom it concerns.
There's a lot of good stuff written here, but with abit if creative editing, can make us look like redneck buffoons, and that supports every untruth said about us legal, law abiding citizens

Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.

Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.

He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.

Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.

He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.

I'm guilty if not taking to much notice of this as there's abit going on here at the moment. But the timing for this is impeccable. Middle of the roar, leading up to opening duckshooting, last holiday rabbit shoot..... Historically the time most incidents happen, so more statistics to throw around to the easily mislead public

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.

Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.

He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.

I wonder how many people he has fucked over with that lying gob of his? I hear zero police distancing themselves from his position either.

Originally Posted by Tommy

I wonder how many people he has fucked over with that lying gob of his? I hear zero police distancing themselves from his position either.

When the police overthrow the govt it would be handy if the population was unarmed.

We have firearms license holders also who think you guys have it all wrong.......and the Committee to all intents and purposes fully supports this view......there has not been a word of dissent from them......!

Have a read and let him know what you think.......https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/

How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?

Nothing apart from the upside of poor Police training I think the guy survived being shot?

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?

It doesn't

It's a sad fact of spousal abuse in this country that (mostly) men kill their wives/ girlfriends on a regular basis

Rifles, knives, cars, bare hands and usually cos they have decided to get out from under the bloke's abuse and make a new life for themselves

This one happened to be a cop but I reckon that it should have zero bearing on the current firearm legislation other than just being another grim statistic to add to the pile

Originally Posted by 308

It doesn't

It's a sad fact of spousal abuse in this country that (mostly) men kill their wives/ girlfriends on a regular basis

Rifles, knives, cars, bare hands and usually cos they have decided to get out from under the bloke's abuse and make a new life for themselves

This one happened to be a cop but I reckon that it should have zero bearing on the current firearm legislation other than just being another grim statistic to add to the pile

Pretty much this. After reading the shit storm of brain dead police bashing comments on face book, I am left wondering how many cases like this go unnoticed by the media because the perp is a nobody. I can see the irony of a police officer doing this, while their association calls for stricter gun laws, and I can see our favourite union man spinning it back onto us, but at this point in time I think it is in bad taste to comment. Makes us no better than the grave dancing antis.