Thread: Shooting: The sport all of us enjoy - do your part in preserving the ability to do so

Originally Posted by zimmer

It's about what I expected i.e. meets the requirements of the hidden agenda, not the stated agenda which has been put in the too hard basket. Hidden agenda being to progressively disarm the populous. That is the legal, law abiding populous.

I think we all pretty well knew the outcome would be like this.

If only we could all vote with our feet on this single issue.

Have not voted for either of the 2 major controlling party's ever...... short of blowing up parliament or somehow mind controlling "Sir Peter Talley"(What a fucking JOKE that is!) I dont know how we could effect the status quo other than halting immigration.....totally.

We are overfull already....and there is a lot that should go back whence they came , A bit redneck perhaps but I make no apology at all for that.

If every firearm owner voted for a keep your guns party maybe we would have a chance....but most would be more concerned with weather the govt will charge them tax on capital gains on the 15 houses they own than if they keep their guns they never use./

They don't recommend registration because they don't think it will achieve anything, in the next sentence they recommend recording all serial numbers....permit to procure for ALL firearms, how is that not exactly what they recommended would not achieve anything?

Sounds like Police are going to have their wishes and be spending all day doing admin recording and permitting firearms transactions and ammo sales. Be much easier for crims than is now. Sit outside Police station and watch.

If this wider permit to procure recommendation came to pass, there are enough licenced firearm owners in this country to drown them in their own paperwork.
All a 230000+ strong user group would have to do is transfer possession of a single firearm each between a mate, each and every week and just break the system.

Originally Posted by Moutere

If this wider permit to procure recommendation came to pass, there are enough licenced firearm owners in this country to drown them in their own paperwork.
All a 230000+ strong user group would have to do is transfer possession of a single firearm each between a mate, each and every week and just break the system.

All that would happen there is you would be prosecuted for transfering a firearm without a permit to procure and you would be in the shite and no longer a fit and proper user but a "criminal"

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

All that would happen there is you would be prosecuted for transfering a firearm without a permit to procure and you would be in the shite and no longer a fit and proper user but a "criminal"

No, transfer with a permit.
Snow the system under with their own pointless requirement.

Originally Posted by Moutere

No, transfer with a permit.
Snow the system under with their own pointless requirement.

With a snowed under system you have no sale....sell anyway="criminal"

If you voted labour or national in the last 20 years you led us here.

Just wondering if this will mean there will be any changes on types of weapons we can by with each type of endorsement?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

With a snowed under system you have no sale....sell anyway="criminal"

I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!

Originally Posted by Moutere

I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!

Yes I know...but what of those who ARE trying to sell something?....fu8ck em for the greater good?...foreclose that mortgage ? and for what? sorry we are to slow to process sales so we must make it more difficult to sell,that would be the likely outcome.

Can anyone give a list of names in the bee hive that are pro and neg firearms?

Originally Posted by Moutere

I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!

No I get what you mean.

Another consideration. Where does it leave people with regard to borrowing firearms? For pistols, MSSA's etc, you need a P2P to take possesion of a gun, then the old owner needs a P2P to take it back. What happens if a Dad lends his son a rifle, son gets stopped by a cop that wants to check the ownership of the gun, and finds it doesn't belong to him? Under the current system for MSSA's, both parties would find themselves in deep shit.

Also if I have read the recommendations correctly, police would now have the same search powers for A cat owners, that they do for restricted weapons. They can enter your premise and demand an inspection and audit of your firearms and security without a search warrant. Guys like me are used to that (and lol if they ever have the staff and time to do it), but how would it sit with the rest of the gun owning population knowing you literally have less rights than a real criminal?

in the third paragraph of the introduction they wrote "Thus, our recommendations aim to reduce the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs, and those who do not have a licence, without unfairly impinging on law-abiding firearms users."

yet by their own comments and recommendations, they seem to have disregarded the criminal element and have tried to place the burden right back on law abiding "fit and proper" persons.

Recommendation to the Government that the permit to procure process be extended to cover the sale or transfer of all firearms. Permit to procure for ALL firearms- It is already evident by the delays in processing that the Police cannot cope with the volume of work they have now, and this would likely increase the required resources many times over, and these resources would be better suited to targeting ACTUAL crimes. Also with a database and increased access to this by large numbers of people means it will essentially be a list of where you can steal what you are looking for....Criminal shopping list? And being electronic, the list of those who will have access will be huge. These registration lists are inaccurate, and become unwieldy and inaccurate. By their own admission, the paper based system was 66% inaccurate and from my professional experience, adding computers to this does NOT make it any more prone to accuracy. In fact, it will make it easier for larger numbers of people to access(and potentially alter) the information including non police personnel (Trade me is even specifically mentioned even though it is a corporate and insecure site.) And what does it gain? Registration and permits to procure will effectively become a bureaucratic entanglement where the only people who want to use it will be the very people who should NOT have access to that information.
Recommendation to the Government that the Police investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic firearm (rifle and shotgun) to replace the MSSA firearm endorsement category. There are so many semi auto 22 rifles alone (Think Ruger 10/22) that are not MSSA. To make these MSSA will not make any difference to the firearms going to criminals. In fact this will likely INCREASE the number of firearms being dumped into criminals hands as the cost of complying with the law (getting a license endorsement and / increased security costs) will far exceed the value of the rifle. An endorsement costs $200 and the 6mm safe is $500 to $1000 or more, where the rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 etc are $400 to $500 brand new and often half that for second hand. The cheapest option for owners will be to "give" them to crims" simply so they do not end up holding onto them. Add this to the many many semi autos out there (one of the cheapest rifles sold in NZ new is a semi auto) and this whole idea can be seen for the impractical and stupid idea that it really is. A better suggestion would be reduce the entire category back to A category and apply the endorsement for permission to own the large capacity magazines. Make the restrictions "specific and measurable" and not open to interpretation. How does the shape of a handle make a firearm more or less dangerous? Does the colour of a car do the same? If a car has a rear spoiler, does that mean it can go faster? The whole MSSA debacle and the definition problems have occurred because of an emotive and reactionary approach rather than a common sense and realistic approach. Clearly the government is able to learn from its errors. We have seen this in the way we now have LAMS motorcycles as an improvement on the 250cc restriction we used to have for learner riders. Common sense and someone who understood the dynamics of the problem was able to address this and made it safer.



Recommendation to the Government that the Arms Act 1983 be amended to clearly state that a gang member or prospect must not be considered a fit and proper person to possess firearms and therefore must not hold a firearms licence.Finally a bit of common sense.
Recommendation to the Government that the law be amended to require the Police to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of their licence or inspection of their premises. If this registration is such a good idea, why did Canada abandon it for being too expensive and not providing any actual practical use?

Originally Posted by Beaker

Can anyone give a list of names in the bee hive that are pro and neg firearms?

Not on this forum unfortunately.

Originally Posted by timattalon

in the third paragraph of the introduction they wrote "Thus, our recommendations aim to reduce the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs, and those who do not have a licence, without unfairly impinging on law-abiding firearms users."

yet by their own comments and recommendations, they seem to have disregarded the criminal element and have tried to place the burden right back on law abiding "fit and proper" persons.

Recommendation to the Government that the permit to procure process be extended to cover the sale or transfer of all firearms. Permit to procure for ALL firearms- It is already evident by the delays in processing that the Police cannot cope with the volume of work they have now, and this would likely increase the required resources many times over, and these resources would be better suited to targeting ACTUAL crimes. Also with a database and increased access to this by large numbers of people means it will essentially be a list of where you can steal what you are looking for....Criminal shopping list? And being electronic, the list of those who will have access will be huge. These registration lists are inaccurate, and become unwieldy and inaccurate. By their own admission, the paper based system was 66% inaccurate and from my professional experience, adding computers to this does NOT make it any more prone to accuracy. In fact, it will make it easier for larger numbers of people to access(and potentially alter) the information including non police personnel (Trade me is even specifically mentioned even though it is a corporate and insecure site.) And what does it gain? Registration and permits to procure will effectively become a bureaucratic entanglement where the only people who want to use it will be the very people who should NOT have access to that information.
Recommendation to the Government that the Police investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic firearm (rifle and shotgun) to replace the MSSA firearm endorsement category. There are so many semi auto 22 rifles alone (Think Ruger 10/22) that are not MSSA. To make these MSSA will not make any difference to the firearms going to criminals. In fact this will likely INCREASE the number of firearms being dumped into criminals hands as the cost of complying with the law (getting a license endorsement and / increased security costs) will far exceed the value of the rifle. An endorsement costs $200 and the 6mm safe is $500 to $1000 or more, where the rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 etc are $400 to $500 brand new and often half that for second hand. The cheapest option for owners will be to "give" them to crims" simply so they do not end up holding onto them. Add this to the many many semi autos out there (one of the cheapest rifles sold in NZ new is a semi auto) and this whole idea can be seen for the impractical and stupid idea that it really is. A better suggestion would be reduce the entire category back to A category and apply the endorsement for permission to own the large capacity magazines. Make the restrictions "specific and measurable" and not open to interpretation. How does the shape of a handle make a firearm more or less dangerous? Does the colour of a car do the same? If a car has a rear spoiler, does that mean it can go faster? The whole MSSA debacle and the definition problems have occurred because of an emotive and reactionary approach rather than a common sense and realistic approach. Clearly the government is able to learn from its errors. We have seen this in the way we now have LAMS motorcycles as an improvement on the 250cc restriction we used to have for learner riders. Common sense and someone who understood the dynamics of the problem was able to address this and made it safer.



Recommendation to the Government that the Arms Act 1983 be amended to clearly state that a gang member or prospect must not be considered a fit and proper person to possess firearms and therefore must not hold a firearms licence.Finally a bit of common sense.
Recommendation to the Government that the law be amended to require the Police to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of their licence or inspection of their premises. If this registration is such a good idea, why did Canada abandon it for being too expensive and not providing any actual practical use?

Well said but saying it on here will not make a lick of difference, we as a collective needed to vote the anti guns out, we had a clear choice the last two elections but struggeled to gain one seat.

apathy or more interest in your investments?

What I found most disappointing was that there were only 400odd submissions made to the committee in the first place.
A real missed opportunity.