Thread: Some reasons why it often goes bad.

Originally Posted by 2post

The reason I posted a photo of one of my load development groups is that it’s all very good knowing the theory but it’s the human element that I think makes the biggest difference with a hunting gun. All I know is the more I learn the more I need to learn. I’m keen to see something from @Tussock and @LRP that more than theory.

What would you like to see?

This entire discussion is about precision, not accuracy. I have accurate rifle in the cupboard now, but none that are overly precise. I have a donor rifle for a build that should be both accurate and precise.

Am I expected to demonstrate I am a benchrest or F-class shooter?

This does not interest me. What interests me is hitting what I am aiming at. Does isolating all the variables help me with this?

I will state this very plainly. How do you get better at dealing with the variables shooting throws at you, by avoiding them?

Isolating variables requires me to make assumptions. I assume they don't matter. A hunter who shoots his groups and zeroes his rifle off a bench rest assumes that when he shoots if off his field rest, it behaves the same. This is an assumption, and assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

While everyone else is reducing variables, I am reducing assumptions.

So, shall I get my 7mm rem mag out, unbedded, barrel un-floated, its a Ruger and it has the thinnest whippyest barrel you ever saw? It also cost less than a set of mounts for a benchrest rifle.

Originally Posted by 2post

No pressure we all know a picture speaks a thousand words. Ha.
I can add that the gun that shot that group puts the Fowler in the middle of the group. Happy days.

A rifle that is worth a dozen "1/5 MOA" rifles.

Originally Posted by 2post

No pressure we all know a picture speaks a thousand words. Ha.
I can add that the gun that shot that group puts the Fowler in the middle of the group. Happy days.

I shall PM ya later. I'm sitting in Starbucks, Saigon and don't know anyone here who can loan me a shooter. I aint never seen so many scooters !!!

Originally Posted by Tussock

What would you like to see?

This entire discussion is about precision, not accuracy. I have accurate rifle in the cupboard now, but none that are overly precise. I have a donor rifle for a build that should be both accurate and precise.

Am I expected to demonstrate I am a benchrest or F-class shooter?

This does not interest me. What interests me is hitting what I am aiming at. Does isolating all the variables help me with this?

I will state this very plainly. How do you get better at dealing with the variables shooting throws at you, by avoiding them?

Isolating variables requires me to make assumptions. I assume they don't matter. A hunter who shoots his groups and zeroes his rifle off a bench rest assumes that when he shoots if off his field rest, it behaves the same. This is an assumption, and assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

While everyone else is reducing variables, I am reducing assumption

once again you have missed the common ground......I will type it slowly for you.....the purpose of a good bedding job is to reduce the variables....as is good CONSISTANT technique.
return to battery is the term used I believe to desribe how bedding works.

you say you can shoot the same of many contorted positions...umm helloooo thats the opposite of consistant...so you have to be VERY good at getting what you can to be the same...see even there there is common ground...consistancy is the key..repeatability is another way to say it..doesnt matter a shit if that is a 3 or 5 shot group or 1 shot today and 1 shot in a months time....if its not consistant it wont consistantly hit where it was supposed to be aimed at.... the very WHY of shotgun fit.....if a shotgun fits the shooter properly they can hit targets in all sorts of weird situations as gun becomes an extension of shooter... its consistantly the same.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

once again you have missed the common ground......I will type it slowly for you.....the purpose of a good bedding job is to reduce the variables....as is good CONSISTANT technique.
return to battery is the term used I believe to desribe how bedding works.

you say you can shoot the same of many contorted positions...umm helloooo thats the opposite of consistant...so you have to be VERY good at getting what you can to be the same...see even there there is common ground...consistancy is the key..repeatability is another way to say it..doesnt matter a shit if that is a 3 or 5 shot group or 1 shot today and 1 shot in a months time....if its not consistant it wont consistantly hit where it was supposed to be aimed at.... the very WHY of shotgun fit.....if a shotgun fits the shooter properly they can hit targets in all sorts of weird situations as gun becomes an extension of shooter... its consistantly the same.

Yes Micky D some of what the Tussock meister has written here has driven me to drink. All the original two articles ( and I did not write them ) were meant to do was generate some thinking about the fundafuckingmentals of getting an accurate and cònsistent shot away. I KNOW that advice is totally sound.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

once again you have missed the common ground......I will type it slowly for you.....the purpose of a good bedding job is to reduce the variables.... Great, but putting some epoxy in your action reduces one variable, which may or may not be relevant. Are you trying to tell me bedding is some kind of a magic fix? If the action is inside the stock, the rifle is bedded. Did you relieve one side of the bedding lug? How long could we sit here and discuss types of bedding, types of bedding compound etc etc. These are VARIABLES. Shall we argue the length of a piece of string?

as is good CONSISTANT technique.
return to battery is the term used I believe to desribe how bedding works.
you say you can shoot the same of many contorted positions...umm helloooo thats the opposite of consistant...so you have to be VERY good at getting what you can to be the same...see even there there is common ground...consistancy is the key..repeatability is another way to say it..
Can you explain what you are repeating? What is it you are repeating? Do you repeat the same ammo, same rifle, same shooter, same position, same weather, same location, or do you allow yourself a few extra variables and take your rifle hunting? If so, which variables matter? What are your RELEVANT variables? The point I am making here is you have not actually said anything. I said it is possible to shoot the rifles potential from contorted positions. This is true, because I need to be extremely consistent with the relevant variables, and my body position is not relevant

doesnt matter a shit if that is a 3 or 5 shot group or 1 shot today and 1 shot in a months time....if its not consistant it wont consistantly hit where it was supposed to be aimed at....
You just summed up why so many people shoot "1/2 MOA" groups at the range and can't hit the side of a barn in the field. The field is not consistent. You could get a PhD in science, and I'm not taking the piss. This is how top scientists think. They isolate all the variables in the lab and they make all kinds of experiments, but try to get them to do something real and practical outdoors If I asked you how you shoot accurately of whatever the hell is next to you, next time you shoot a deer, how do you practice? What is the chances the thing next to you is a log and not a bench rest?

the very WHY of shotgun fit.....if a shotgun fits the shooter properly they can hit targets in all sorts of weird situations as gun becomes an extension of shooter... its consistantly the same.
This is shotgun shooting. The shotgun is an extension of the shooter because everything is moving. Shooting a rifle is the reverse. Nothing is moving and the shooter becomes an extension of the rifle, the fit matters, but less so. Personally I try to become an extension of the ground.

There is no need to speak slowly to me if no one is going to put as much thought into this as I am.

Are you saying that if someone does not have a 20lb chassis rifle they will not be able to hit anything, or could there be some other VARIABLES in field shooting that need dealt with?

Bed the rifle, by all means. But go buy the shittest rifle on the shelf in the gunstore, glue the action to the stock and see if it becomes a benchrest rifle. I suspect it won't. It is one variable and not always a big one.

Harmonics are what you are tuning a rifle for. Firing it is like tapping a tuning fork. You don't want it to rattle, so you bed it. This is not the same thing as the action "returning to the same place each time". It will do that unless the action screws are not done up. As I said, I have seen a rifle shoot well without the action screws done up. Some don't care.

You are really trying to get that rifle to play a note. If it rattles, it will may play the note. But if it does not rattle, it still may not play the note.

A friend of mine has a degree in music, math, physics and geology. He got them all at the same time in 3 years. I might discuss this with him and see what he thinks.

Originally Posted by LRP

Yes Micky D some of what the Tussock meister has written here has driven me to drink. All the original two articles ( and I did not write them ) were meant to do was generate some thinking about the fundafuckingmentals of getting an accurate and cònsistent shot away. I KNOW that advice is totally sound.

I think the issue is whoever wrote the articles can not write to save themselves. Why write long technical articles if you do not know what the words mean?

The entire article is about precision, not accuracy.

Originally Posted by LRP

I KNOW that advice is totally sound.

The advice was bed the rifle. This is sound. The reasoning is gibberish.

Did the drinking come because you generated some thinking and the thinking hurt?

Accuracy is the reduction of all variables to zero.

This is the opening line. I dare anyone to try and defend it. Most of the variables don't go to zero.

Originally Posted by Tussock

What would you like to see?

This entire discussion is about precision, not accuracy. I have accurate rifle in the cupboard now, but none that are overly precise. I have a donor rifle for a build that should be both accurate and precise.

Am I expected to demonstrate I am a benchrest or F-class shooter?

This does not interest me. What interests me is hitting what I am aiming at. Does isolating all the variables help me with this?

I will state this very plainly. How do you get better at dealing with the variables shooting throws at you, by avoiding them?

Isolating variables requires me to make assumptions. I assume they don't matter. A hunter who shoots his groups and zeroes his rifle off a bench rest assumes that when he shoots if off his field rest, it behaves the same. This is an assumption, and assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

While everyone else is reducing variables, I am reducing assumptions.

So, shall I get my 7mm rem mag out, unbedded, barrel un-floated, its a Ruger and it has the thinnest whippyest barrel you ever saw? It also cost less than a set of mounts for a benchrest rifle.

Got a brake put on my Ruger 7 mag,took it out to see how it shoots,it’s got a hair trigger and a floated barrel,otherwise stock.

First group is zeroing at 60 yards 3 shots same hole,probably a fluke.second pic 200 yards,third pic 426 yards 3 shots,ran out of ammo pulled last shot left badly.factory Winchester ballistic silver tip ammo.
The old ruger is hissing.

This is math ok. It is hard science. It is the reason I enjoy shooting, so I can amuse myself with this all day.

Let me lay out what he actually says here.

When a rifle fires, its barreled action whips and vibrates all over
the place in every direction and various magnitudes. Such physical
trauma results in the receiver finally settling down in a microscopically
different place after each shot. After which it now gets to start
the vibrating and whipping all over again when the next shot is fired.

The barrel and action move chaotically "all over the place". This is in no way repeatable, it flies about at random and returns to a different spot.

But that microscopically different starting point causes the barreled
action to take off in a different direction and magnitude than before
when the next shot is fired. This just repeats for each and every shot.

Something that flies off at random, now flies off in a different dihis is what the barrel and action move chaotically "all over the place" means. If it moves off at random, the starting point is irrelevant. It does not matter where it came to rest, as the action of a barrel and action is random regardless

As the muzzle points in random places for each shot due to these whips
and vibrations, it will point at a different place relative to the line
of sight for each shot.

The movement of the barrel and action is still random at this point.

That is what causes groups (accuracy) to be
less than what makes smiley faces. Barrel weight doesn't reduce this
situation. Neither does handloads with extremely low velocity standard
deviations. It is further aggravated by out-of-square bolt faces and
locking lugs not making full contact. If the barrel touches part of
the forend, that adds another accuracy-degrading element to an already
bad situation. And the best cases, primers, powder and bullets so
darned perfectly assembled won't help either. If the barreled action
doesn't start from the same place for each shot, the bullets won't end
up in the same place later.

He has repeatedly said barrels and actions whip about randomly so it does not matter where the end up, their departure will be random

So, if the barreled action can be somehow returned to exactly the same
place in the stock for each and every shot, the magnitude of those
barrel whips and vibrations will be greatly reduced, if not practically
eliminated.

Now he is saying that if you can get the barrel and action to start and stop in the same place, the random whips and vibrations will get vastly smaller, or stop entirely, purely because it departs from the same place. Firing no longer makes the rifle vibrate, because the barrel and action always return to the same spot.

Then the only thing left is normal barreled action vibrations
at their resonant frequency, but this can't be eliminated although it
has virtually no effect on accuracy. Epoxy bedding was and is the
solution.

The resonance frequency goes from discordant to harmonic (and therefore repeatable) via the laborious process of load development.

What really happens is a rifle always vibrates and through load selection we get it to vibrate in a way that is conducive to accuracy and precision.

The "randomness" he refers to does not exist. The rifle does not vibrate randomly, or none of them will group, ever.

Surely just about everyone has taken a bedded rifle through load development? If all you had to do was bed it and it would miraculously cease to vibrate, why don't we just bed out rifles and go win benchrest contests?

Because those vibrations are chaotic and discordant and by changing powder types and projectile weights till we find a point where they are not and the departure from the barrel is repeatable and in the part of its movement we want.

Every time he talks about the barrel and action departing and returning, he must be referring to a rifle with the action screws undone. An unbedded rifle may rattle like fury and stuff up your harmonics, but still depart and return to the same spot.
For a bedded action this is all irrelevant because it never departs.

And again, bedding is relative. If the action is in the stock it is bedded, and where you want to go from there is up to you. Most hunting rifles are bedded to allow the action to move in the stock. Directly forward and backward. Don't ask me why, but the only time I did not do it I had to gouge it all out and start again and partially relieve the bedding lugs, because it shot like shit.

very close but still no cigar....... you nearly had it in the middle then lost it again.... sure the barrel whips around like a mad womans jubblies on a trampoline during fireing.....to take same mental picture....IF said mad woman bounces 1mtr high EVERY time, and both feet and legs move the same distance every time..well her jubblies will pretty much bounce/wobbly the same way everytime (unless of course she grabs them with her hands)
my understanding of bedding/return to battery is to give the rifle/barrel/action THE VERY BEST chance of doing the best it can is to try and put the stresses/contact points in the very same place at beginning of shot every time....
eg my Zastava mauser when I got it shot ok but sometimes would put shot into random place...and it clunked......the clunk drove me nuts till I found out why.

this was the extent of the bedding it had....a pooh blob stuck in barrel channel by someone who thought they knew best...the recoil lug was ummmm free. the action was done up tight BUT the stock was samwiched in between and was narrower then the action screws.so screws were done up tight and stock could move back and forwards about 3mm...sometimes it was forward when shot was taken,sometimes it was back...thus the random fliers.

so I got proactive and got stuck in...removed a little wood from around recoil lug...you can see where it was touching in first photo...plurry hopeless.
used bedding compound and bedded front of action out into barrel channel so the knox is also supported. rifle now doesnt clunk or throw fliers. it will group better than I can shoot,I havent fired shots on paper otherthan to sight it in,dont need to ,it does what I ask.kills what I aim it at.

so Ive done my bit to remove ONE variable....... trying to make my reloads consistant is ANOTHER variable,trying to keep my hold on rifle the same each time ANOTHER variable over which I have some control,ensuring sight picture is same each time eg scope is centered is ANOTHER variable I have some control over.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so I got proactive and got stuck in...removed a little wood from around recoil lug...you can see where it was touching in first photo...plurry hopeless.
used bedding compound and bedded front of action out into barrel channel so the knox is also supported. rifle now doesnt clunk or throw fliers. it will group better than I can shoot,I havent fired shots on paper otherthan to sight it in,dont need to ,it does what I ask.kills what I aim it at.Attachment 119761Attachment 119762

so Ive done my bit to remove ONE variable....... trying to make my reloads consistant is ANOTHER variable,trying to keep my hold on rifle the same each time ANOTHER variable over which I have some control,ensuring sight picture is same each time eg scope is centered is ANOTHER variable I have some control over.

This is what I’m talking about. I’m at the point where Im the variable, thanks to the work @Puffin has put into my gun. It’s hard to sort the human variable when you haven’t sorted the gun. Unless you know it’s not you

You guys are using the wrong definition of variable. It is anything that can change. There are a lot of them. Some are relevant, meaning the effect your desired outcome, some are not. Some can be controlled by the shooter, some need to be handloaded to where you want them. Variables are just all the things that are happening. Some can be eliminated, but the only way to get rid of all of them is to get rid of yourself and the rifle. Some of them you need.
@Micky Duck keeps explaining that the barrel and action should be attached to the stock, over and over and over and over. Yes it should. Bed the rifle, you don't want it to rattle.

You have now dealt with maybe 10% of the issue of harmonics in a rifle. Could everyone stop implying bedding "solves" harmonics. Bedding solves bedding. Bedding makes sure the rifle does not rattle. Good. Job done.

This is what I call a storm in a tea cup argument. You don't know the full picture, so you take a small part and make out it is everything.

The great myth repeated over and over is the rifle is jumping around like a mad woman. We have bedded the rifle, so it is no longer broken. Lets forget about when you were silly enough to shoot a rifle that rattled.

The rifle is still waving about, just not at random. If it is, it shoots very very very very very badly. You need to tune your loads to get it to a point where the vibrations are not random which is not that hard and true for most accurate rifles. Almost all rifles since maybe the mid 1800s are accurate.

Not all of them are precise and the definition of precise is what keeps people coming back to the internet.

My Ruger is not precise, because Ruger do not make precise rifles (relative to others) but it is very very accurate. It does the same 1.5" group, day in day out, in any conditions. Some Rugers I have handloaded for, my brothers one for example, shoots the same 1.5" group all the way through load development. That rifle is a stone cold killer with a hell of a reputation out to 500m (re-barreled tang safety in 280 I built from scrap).

What the hell is the point in everyone shouting at each other, while everyone has a different definition of each word? I'm using the technical definition. I assume everyone else is going on what they think these words mean.

In science class the text book definition of accuracy and precision frequently uses shooting as an example.