Thread: Some reasons why it often goes bad.

I started reading thi last night and decided to finish it thismorning. I have ac ouple of clarifications that I wanted to mention.

When the quote " He knows and writes about "internet" accuracy." I think he was talking about the accuracy of information on the internet.

And the precision vs accuracy debate...

They are both important. If you have a very accurate rifle, but not a precise one, you will likely have little success without luck.
Likewise if you have a precise rifle and its not accurate, you will get the same result.


Definition of precise

1 : exactly or sharply defined or stated
2 : minutely exact
3 : strictly conforming to a pattern, standard, or convention
4 : distinguished from every other


Definition of accurate

1 : free from error especially as the result of care an accurate diagnosis
2 : conforming exactly to truth or to a standard : exact providing accurate colour
3 : able to give an accurate result an accurate gauge
4 : going to, reaching, or hitting the intended target : not missing the target an accurate shot/kick The next play, Johnson fielded a sharp grounder and made an accurate throw to first.— Joe Smith
5 : tending to hit the intended target an accurate free-throw shooter


Reading these I would be inclined to sat that

-Precision is addressing all the variables that can affect the outcome of the shot - load, quality / reliability, consistency etc

and

-Accuracy is the RESULT of the precision where the bullet goes where it is intended to.....

This is turning into an English lesson. Definitions must be in context. Firing a rifle and diagnosis are not comparable.

Solving a problem with a rifle is diagnostics.

In order to perform diagnostics properly you better understand in detail how the system works, in this case the rifle.

This is why more than just me has said bed the rifle. Great. Good job.

The description of all the randomness in the rifles vibrations is misleading and will result in people cocking up their diagnostics if the issue is not solved by bedding.

There are also multiple ways to bed a rifle and my only precision rifle is sitting int he cupboard waiting for Robbie Tiffen to bed it because he is the only NZ "gunsmith" I ever trusted.

Thanks to this thread I am trying to buy back my last one.

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As far as precision goes, it is how we measure how far you can shoot. If the rifle shoots three inches then someone will tell you to shoot no further than 200m with it.

Let's say the heart is 4" and my rifle makes a 10" wound channel.

I need to get inside 12" of the point of aim to take out he heart.

A 2" group gets me within 12" of the heart to how far away?

Do I really need bench rest precision or am I better off with a rifle set up to shoot off of rocks in boulder fields at messed up angles?




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if you waiting for Robbie to do job you will be waiting a while......R.I.P. Robbie.

I have found thumb placement and pressure changes my shooting dramatically. Just another variable I may look at bedding it in the near future

said it before and will say it again.....if you can CONSISTANTLY hit a 3ltr milk jug/bottle at a given range ,you can kill a deer at same range in same circumstances/contorted positions....all things being equal thats about same size n shape as a deers boiler room.... piece of cake to do it off a bench...off elbows after a run.....with a rifle thats scope is too high/low stock to short.long...trigger at 12lb...not so much.
hitting something that size from steady rest at 2-300 yards is pretty much a given for most folk...try it standing in a hurry and 50 yards is about limit...sitting using knees for rest Id back myself out to 150.
I guess thats my hunting standard of accuracy needed.

You don't want body position to have a big impact on your shooting.

Shoot five rounds each in a different body position. Each one should be realistic for field shooting.

This is how well you and your rifle group in the field.

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I’m enjoying this thread as there is so much to learn. I’m not so interested in an English lesson though.

I put the paper plate challenge up so I know who to listen to.

Now I think I’ll give it a go next time I’m at the range, it’ll be my Fowler (1st shot) at 200 and I’ll post it here, good or bad. My rifle will never be a bench rest rifle so I’m keen to know more about technique.

Originally Posted by 2post

I’m enjoying this thread as there is so much to learn. I’m not so interested in an English lesson though.

I put the paper plate challenge up so I know who to listen to.

Now I think I’ll give it a go next time I’m at the range, it’ll be my Fowler (1st shot) at 200 and I’ll post it here, good or bad. My rifle will never be a bench rest rifle so I’m keen to know more about technique.

Don't listen to people who post groups on the internet. Don't believe anything. Go try understand it from first principles.

It's a teach a man to fish thing. You can learn what the "experts" say and copy them, but when you have a problem the experts will not be there. The experts likely don't do exactly what you do and recycled solutions suck.

I care about the shot I mentioned earlier. I made a similar shot recently, not perfectly but I was set up for 200m (new rifle, quick zero with a box of factory ammo and hunting). 330m which seemed straight up. I let the rifle smack me over to make the shot. 7mm rem mag, 175gr pill, rifle barely on my shoulder and no effort to contain recoil. Blood pouring from my forehead.
Stuck in creek bed on an off camber gravel bar shooting off a full heavy pack.

I did this because I knew if I let the rifle recoil in this way I could factor out my other problems and I did not have time to do things the way I would have liked.

This is not benchrest. This is ugly. Field shooting is ugly.

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That’s not for me, it’s got to be a clean kill, or my fingers not on the trigger. Side on, within range, good rest or the deer walks.

Yes, but it was not a deer. Do you encounter a lot of Tahr and Chamois you can shoot?

If you want to learn then learn from people who know their stuff , not someone who tries to confuse you with what they have plagiarized & hashed from the internet .

https://bergerbullets.com/hitting-ta...at-long-range/

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse — Read this classic article « Daily Bulletin

And then just practice the basics , the rest will follow .

Clean or no trigger

Originally Posted by 2post

Clean or no trigger

And you are implying mine was not?

What do you limit yourself to?

To me you need to consider both the precision and accuracy of you're entire set up, and the accumulative effects of both to determine the distance you can comfortably take a shot. That includes the gear and the nut behind the butt, the latter often being the major one. With the nut, you need to factor in consistency and ability to read and correct for the situation and conditions you are shooting. So field accuracy and precision are both variable and both decrease (in absolute terms) with range.

Now back to the original post. Bedding is not always the issue. For instance with my little 223 that I bought cheap because it's precision was 4" at 100m, which didn't worry me in the slightest for it's intended purpose of bowling a pig at 30m. But I wanted it to be quiet so it went to Gunworks without me even firing a shot through it, but I did get mudgripz to play at the range first. Robbie picked it up and demonstrated the flex in the stock by leaning on it. Anyway, I picked it up after getting it quietened and took it to the range and all the three shot groups were between 11-13mm at 100m. Now this was an eye opener for me as a pretty new shooter, with no coaching, who thought I'd be pushing to ever get even anywhere near 1moa. And that rifle, in it's flimsy plastic stock, still isn't bedded. But the changes in mass, recoil, and the stiffening effect of the over barrel suppressor on the thin barrel had a huge effect on dampening the harmonics in both the action and the stock.

And this, I think is part of what Tussock was talking about. Bedding may help, but it may not. Other things may help, or they may not. A proper diagnosis is required and Robbie just knew what the issue was likely to be through knowledge and experience.