Thread: 1 Licensed Hunter, Two Rifles?

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

which begs the question....if Ben is hooning aroundhis farm in the side by side and has 10/22 for rabbits n hares and the .223 for goats and maybe the .308 in rack as well just incase them pesky deer pop up...and he has someone with him to open gates...is he breaking the law???? 3 firearms and only one FAL.....

I suggest that the call on 'supervision' in this case would be one rifle being used. So in this situation if the other two firearms are not being used it would be fine, on the proviso that the driver is actually supervising the shooter while a rifle is being used and not actively driving.

Similar situation to taking someone to a range or for a target shoot. You can have several firearms present, as long as only one is being used at a time. Hunting on foot would be slightly different as how many of us carry a spare rifle that is not being used? The supervisor can carry a firearm and supervise but that gun should not be in use while supervising.

I think the key point is when supervising, the LFAO must be supervising to the standard where they are still able to maintain full control of the firearm in the hands of the non licensed shooter. That would mean being able to physically stop the firearm from being pointed in an unsafe direction or firing if not safe to do so etc.

Ok, ive been here before and ask the questions from the police along time ago and heres some answers that make it reasonable clear.
Firstly, esp in hunting situations only one rifle is to be used between the supervisior and the unlicenced person.
You just open up a whole lot of cans of worms if there are two rifles between people and to prove the supervisior was close enough and in control of the unlicenced shooter is difficult if you both have a firearm. (esp if a accident happened)

So, yes, only one rifle between parties .
Now, if you think thats not Black and white the following is!


To get a DOC hunting permit to hunt on public conservation land with a firearm, you need either:

a valid New Zealand firearms licence, or
to be under the immediate supervision of someone with a valid New Zealand firearms licence. See Section 4b of the Arms Code (external site).
When hunting under the immediate supervision provision:

only one firearm is permitted between the supervisor and the hunter
each person requires a hunting permit.


So clearly to hunt DOC land only one firearm is permitted. And i can tell you this goes with private land hunting as well as the police see it and it makes sence.

So, Hunting DOC land its a NO, black and white, ONLY ONE RIFLE.
If you willing to think its not Black and White on private land you take the risk but if i was the licenced holder no way would there be a extra rifle.

My son started target shooting at 14 years old.
I had to get a FAL so I could own a rifle for him to use.

As the FAL holder I had to supervise him on the range.
I didn't lie beside him I sat about 1.5 metres behind him.

At one point he questioned my level of supervision.
I responded that I was watching him closely and should he start to do something dangerous I'd land on top of him and he'd not be doing much at all.

Fortunately for him and me he is a very responsible shooter and there's never been an issue.
(He got his learners drivers license and his FAL on the day of his 16th birthday.)

that was my point....its pedantics

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

that was my point....its pedantics

Very well said @Micky Duck. Most would be more eloquent in their description, but 'bullshit' might also suffice.

Incidentally this is why I don't believe the law change was prepared in advance, the new legislation has ever sign of having been thrown together in a hurry with much ideology but without much thought.

So if two people are hunting together, one licensed one unlicensed, and they both are carrying bolt action rifles. They should be ok as long as only one rifle has the bolt in it at a time and the spare bolt s being carried by the license holder?
Some people might argue that why do you both need rifles, but I commonly hunt an area that offers both long range and bush hunting so it's nice to have options depending on what you come across

How often do you 'bump the scope'?

The way i interpret it is that the LFAO must not be using a rifle at the same time, as could they have two rifles between them. The LFAO rifle could be slung over his back while supervising the non LFAO.

Hi all, just to cover my ass, thought I would email the local arms office to have some confirmation and written consent. Here is my question I asked the Arms Office


And here is his response


In regard to @deer243 , I could not seem to find the one rifle per license statement on the DoC page? Could you post a link, found all the other info regarding the permits except the one rifle statement.

@jpurdon
The first paragraph of this page states what @deer243 has said, bar the one rifle per license part.
https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...unting-permit/
The info on the DOC page is very poorly written, first part of statement says you need a FAL to apply for a hunting permit, further on it states you don't need a license to apply if you are hunting possums, (doesn't specify trapping). Or if you are under the supervision of a LFAO.
Every person hunting needs a hunting permit.

The part regarding one rifle seems to me to be covered on pg 42 of the arms code, although still offers some ambiguity in it's wording.
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-code-2013.pdf
quote " Immediate supervision
No matter how old you are, if you do not have a firearms
licence but want to use a firearm, you may do so only
under the immediate supervision of someone who has
a firearms licence. In other words, the person with the
licence must be with the shooter, and close enough to take
control of the firearm if necessary. To meet this requirement
the supervisor cannot be using a firearm at the same time.
Generally, this means that there will be only one firearm
between the two people. " end quote

forget the arms'code' whats in the act?

Right, to clear it up GOOGLE Hunting permits Firearms.
There you see 2 sites, one DOC and one Government site that explains it clearer than some other sites, ir one ROKTOY quoted.

I will paste the 2 below. This one on the Hunting Consevation Land/ NZ Government site
1 Hunting on conservation land
You’ll need to get permits for hunting on conservation or other government managed land.

Hunting basics
To hunt on public conservation land you need a hunting permit. To hunt on any other land you need permission from the landowner.

Learn where, what and how you can safely hunt on conservation land. Find out about:

protected species
heli-hunting
taking dogs hunting
where pesticides are laid.
Hunting

Find out:

when to hunt
where to stay
what gear to pack
how to keep safe.
Rules for hunting on public conservation land

What kind of permits you’ll need
Each person in a hunting party needs a separate permit, whether you’re hunting with a firearm, bow or knife. Hunting after dark and spotlighting is illegal on conservation land.

Permits and licences

""""If you’re hunting with a gun, you need a valid New Zealand firearms licence. If you do not have one, you can only hunt with a gun if you’re with someone who does have a licence. You have to be sharing the gun, and they need to stay within arm’s reach of you while you’re using it.""""

Firearms licence

Along with your gamebird licence, you also need a gamebird hunting permit""


So clearly shows you have to share the "Gun"" , having 2 between the parties is a No No.


The Second one is from DOC.....Firearms licence - Hunting permits - Department of Conservation

When hunting under the immediate supervision provision:

only one firearm is permitted between the supervisor and the hunter
each person requires a hunting permit.




So there are the links, pretty clear. If you not looking that hard and just clink on a doc permit site it might not go into full detail but
these make it very clear.
Offically only one rifle between 2 parties if one is unlicenced.. hope that proves what im saying
Cheers

3 pages for somethiing covered in the MSC test.........

I have taken two rifles hunting with one license, but I was hunting by myself.

I have also supervised unlicensed friends that wanted to see what hunting was about, in that scenario I just took one rifle, any more and it gets complicated and would ruin the fun.

The thing to remember before you worry about court/prosecutions interpretations of law etc is that we are at some risk of being involved with death or serious injury any time we use a firearm. The use of two rifles in the scenario doesn’t justify the hassle and risk.

To the OP, your footnote about tomatoes and fruit salad applies to this discussion.

Originally Posted by jpurdon

Just wondering if anyone can clarify this for me. If my two mates (one licensed, one not) and I (unlicensed) are heading out hunting, are we legally allowed to take two rifles? I have been doing research and it seems "anyone can use a sporting firearm without a license if they are under the immediate supervision of a license holder". Immediate supervision also means the license holder cannot be shooting. But if my unlicensed friend and I are both shooting under the 'immediate supervision' of our licensed friend, then I believe this is legal.
Cheers in advance for the responses

Attachment 176692

You may be correct on the wording but i wouldn't personally risk my fal on it think they would pull the old not the intention of the law